US Gov sues L3 (EOTech) for fraud

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  • tradertator

    Grandmaster
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    I still think this is a matter of someone at Eotech pissing off the wrong .gov person or something like that. They have been to war and back for more than a decade now, and all of a sudden they're junk..... IDK though, maybe I'm just biased. I have had terrific luck with them ever since they went to the transverse mounted batteries, and shoot better with one than anything else.
     

    loony1

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    Jan 17, 2010
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    I still think this is a matter of someone at Eotech pissing off the wrong .gov person or something like that. They have been to war and back for more than a decade now, and all of a sudden they're junk..... IDK though, maybe I'm just biased. I have had terrific luck with them ever since they went to the transverse mounted batteries, and shoot better with one than anything else.


    I share the same feelings.
     

    RobbyMaQ

    #BarnWoodStrong
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    Mar 26, 2012
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    What are the nut and bolts behind this? ie, how much MOA off can one expect in extreme cold/hot conditions?
     

    pftraining_in

    Sharpshooter
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    1   0   0
    May 19, 2009
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    IN: South of I-70
    What are the nut and bolts behind this? ie, how much MOA off can one expect in extreme cold/hot conditions?

    Important Information
    Thermal Drift - After zeroing the ECOS systems at or near ambient
    temperature (73°F), the zero position will shift during operating
    temperature changes. The ECOS systems have the potential to shift
    approximately +/- 4 Minutes of Angle (MOA) at -40°F and 122°F. Due to
    thermal drift, the sight may not return to zero. The systems have the
    potential of approximately a +/- 2 MOA zero shift upon return to ambient
    (73°F) after being exposed to any temperature between -40°F and 122°F
    temperatures. Impact to the operators is the sight zero will be affected
    at varying operating temperatures. Please refer to below table to
    determine the MOA effect in inches based on target range:

    Rev 16:00 09/14/2015

    Example: If you have a 4 MOA shift (2nd row 4 MOA), you will have a 4.6”
    shift if target is at a range of 100 meters (1st column 100 m).

    Safe Use
    The ECOS systems sight zero position should be verified and adjusted
    accordingly during and after exposure to temperature extremes.

    Also refer to prior safety of use message issued on 16 March 2015
    (Rev13: 40 03/12/2015), which discusses fading reticle and parallax
    error. Both conditions discussed in that message still exist. Details
    from that message follow:

    Fading Reticle - The complete 65 MOA ring with 1 MOA dot reticle may not
    be visible to the operator throughout the entire viewing window of the
    ECOS-Q optic. The ECOS-Q system’s age and environmental exposure are
    factors which accelerate reticle dimming. Impact to operators is the
    holographic reticle may not be visible in all firing positions.

    Parallax Error – Parallax is an apparent change in the position of an
    object resulting from a change in position of the observer. The 65 MOA
    ring with 1 MOA dot reticle point of aim will appear to move in relation
    to your target during off-axis firing positions where maintaining
    cheek-weld and sight picture is not feasible. The ECOS-Q system has the
    potential of approximately 4 Minute of Angle (MOA) parallax error at
    70°F and approximately 6 MOA parallax error at 5°F. Impact to the
    operators is the point of aim / point of impact will be affected by a
    MOA parallax error, in off-axis firing positions at all temperatures.
     

    pftraining_in

    Sharpshooter
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    1   0   0
    May 19, 2009
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    IN: South of I-70
    The issues with the EoTech have not just appeared and were not brought to surface by a disgruntled employee. The issues with the sight have been known for several years, but those who are sponsored by them and those who have multiple units in waiting to replace the units that go down have not spoke up. The EoTech suffers from wondering zeros, mirror failures, lasers failures, battery life inconsistencies, incorrect sight adjustments, poor mounting hardware, improper material used in battery springs and weak battery contacts. The issues that lead to the lawsuit and the warning were discovered in FBI and independent lab testing prior to authorizing the issue of the site.

    Those who put multiple thousands of rounds down range a year have seen these issues occur on the range and in real life for several years. One must remember that just because something is issued, does not mean it works. Elcans, ITR MARS, MEPRO-MOR are just a few optics that have been issued, but had issues when fielded.

    Units who are issued EoTechs have unlimited supplies of batteries and additional sights to install when their sight fails. These units see the sight as an accessory and don't see a reason to report their failure outside of internal conversations. These units replace batteries between operations per SOP, so they do not see the issues of poor battery life. The bases are typically switched out to an after market mount such as LaRue to improve their ability to stay on the gun. Competitors have the sights given to them for advertising or have a backup, a sight failing in competition is not life threating.

    When someone states they have never had an issue with X-Brand, you must see what their use of the product is, the environment they use the item in and what sampling of the item they have seen. Saying a brand is superior because of the one example in your possession has not failed is the same as saying every car made by brand X will never have a problem because you own brand x car.

    I can not personally recommend them after seeing my own personal sight fail and witnessing many other models of EoTechs fail in multi-day training courses.
     
    Last edited:

    Trigger Time

    Air guitar master
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    204   3   0
    Aug 26, 2011
    40,112
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    SOUTH of Zombie city
    Wish I would have known this before I switched from Aimpoint to Eotechs.
    You will probably never have an issue. I haven't either but most of my time behind one was several years ago and back and I think that was before "L3" came into the picture. Don't know if that makes a difference or not. I've always enjoyed eotechs and they are no doubt the fastest to squire your target.
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
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    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
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    Speedway area
    I doubt it will as it seems they have a cult like following. Glad I got rid of my EOTech's when I did. 5 Aimpoints and no regrets.

    Vortex Strikefire's are a decent red dot and nearly ( nearly) as good as the Aimpoint. Not as adjustable but the 3 I have work very well. Note I am not jumping from a hovering chopper or taking fire from opposing forces so the Vortex fills a niche.
     

    pftraining_in

    Sharpshooter
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    1   0   0
    May 19, 2009
    705
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    IN: South of I-70
    Those who continue to use an EoTech after this announcement must understand you are using a sight that has a flaw that can be deadly. 122 degrees can easily be reached inside the trunk of a vehicle in the summer or from a black sight laying in he sun on a hard surface. Knowingly using this sight and causing damage, injury or death if no other malice is present, could cause you issues. Note in the warning I posted, they state thermal shift may occur at any temperature, so using this sight you must know that it possibly will never be zeroed anytime you use it. Note also that the thermal shift does not return to zero after cooling. You could potentially witness a multiple MOA shift if the sight suffers multiple heating and cooling sessions. I have seen these sights shift zero multiple times in one day during training. Thinking your sight is zeroed and it is actually 20 MOA off can be a bad thing.

    A $25,000,000 settlement is not a " here is some money leave us alone" settlement. That settlement is that company admitting they did wrong. This will not be the last time they open their wallets.

    There are cheaper sights than Aimpoint, but knowing my sight can dive, can be jumped out of a plane, dropped multiple times, frozen or cooked and still maintain zero makes me feel better grabbing a rifle and using it in a defensive situation. The last thing I should worry about is if my sight is zeroed in a defensive situation. Hitting what I aim at when the shot counts is worth the money. If I have a long gun that is to be used to protect someone (family, stranger or myself), it has an Aimpoint mounted or paint marked iron sights. If it is for fun or hunting, something else.
     
    Last edited:

    wsenefeld

    Master
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    69   0   0
    Dec 2, 2011
    2,187
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    Boone Co.
    Those who continue to use an EoTech after this announcement must understand you are using a sight that has a flaw that can be deadly. 122 degrees can easily be reached inside the trunk of a vehicle in the summer or from a black sight laying in he sun on a hard surface. Knowingly using this sight and causing damage, injury or death if no other malice is present, could cause you issues. Note in the warning I posted, they state thermal shift may occur at any temperature, so using this sight you must know that it possibly will never be zeroed anytime you use it. Note also that the thermal shift does not return to zero after cooling. You could potentially witness a multiple MOA shift if the sight suffers multiple heating and cooling sessions. I have seen these sights shift zero multiple times in one day during training. Thinking your sight is zeroed and it is actually 20 MOA off can be a bad thing.

    A $25,000,000 settlement is not a " here is some money leave us alone" settlement. That settlement is that company admitting they did wrong. This will not be the last time they open their wallets.

    There are cheaper sights than Aimpoint, but knowing my sight can dive, can be jumped out of a plane, dropped multiple times, frozen or cooked and still maintain zero makes me feel better grabbing a rifle and using it in a defensive situation. The last thing I should worry about is if my sight is zeroed in a defensive situation. Hitting what I aim at when the shot counts is worth the money. If the long gun is to be used to protect someone (family, stranger or myself), it has an Aimpoint mounted. If it is for fun or hunting, something else.

    ^^^QFT

    I'd be interested to see what kind of moisture is needed to cause the shift. High humidity? Rain? Downpour? Submersion?
     

    Prometheus

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    1   0   0
    Jan 20, 2008
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    When someone states they have never had an issue with X-Brand, you must see what their use of the product is, the environment they use the item in and what sampling of the item they have seen. Saying a brand is superior because of the one example in your possession has not failed is the same as saying every car made by brand X will never have a problem because you own brand x car.

    I have can not personally recommend them after seeing my own personal sight fail and witnessing many other models of EoTechs fail in multi-day training courses.

    QFT.

    From years of seeing others have issues, first hand in person and from first person conversations with competent users, I had never bought an Eotech up until last year.

    I bought my first EoTech last black friday. after the sale and rebate, I couldn't pass up on a XPS-2 for $329 delivered (yes I was one of the lucky SOBs to score that). I also believed EoTech when they said they had fixed several issues, including battery issues.

    That said, it still rides on my home defense rifle, the Tavor. Considering it lives bedside, I don't have any real concerns about it. That said, since I live on the farm and it's my primary rifle here, I am now wondering if I should be concerned about stepping outside from 68 degrees inside to -20 on the coldest nights up here. :dunno:

    Either way, considering EoTech knew for years and covered it up, KNOWINGLY putting all of us, especially our servicemen and women who operate in these environments, I'll never buy anything EoTech again. Ever.
     

    cbhausen

    Grandmaster
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    128   0   0
    Feb 17, 2010
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    Indianapolis, IN
    Off topic, but you can get a Meprolight Tru-Dot RDS for $280 shipped right now, and the Pro version of same (the American version of the M5) for $485 during the Mako Group's Black Friday sale. Everything's 30% of with free shipping through Monday.
     

    caverjamie

    Sharpshooter
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    2   0   0
    Oct 24, 2010
    421
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    Dubois Co.
    I hate to pile on the EOTech negativity - but I just recently noticed the reticle on my 517 was dimming or disappearing completely in the left 1/4 of the window. I also noticed signs of what I think is the delamination problem I read about online. It was manufactured in 2010 and I'm in the process of getting it sent to them for repair. That being said - I like the open nature of the sight, not looking through a tube. I have no plans to replace it with something else at this point. I could still use it fine even with the delamination issue, and I've never noticed the zero drift either, but maybe I'm just not a good enough shot to start with!
     
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