"Duty Grade" optics

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  • T-DOGG

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    I'll admit, I hate selecting optics for rifles. I generally gravitate towards the lower end of the scale in regards to pricing, generally stuff labeled as decent for the money "budget" level. I've had a few Acogs also, they were nice but not easy on the wallet. During some research lately I see alot of reviews on optics where the person will state they like it, but wouldn't consider it "duty grade".

    So here is my question to get a good conversation going. What is considered "duty grade" in optics, what features make something good enough for duty and how much does duty grade cost? This question is mainly aimed at magnified optics for rifles, but we can generalize to include others as well. Looking at different levels of offerings in manufacturers scopes, at what level does their scope go into "duty grade" is what I can't figure out.

    I did not serve in the military, so I don't have first hand experience with hard use of gear. I don't use my gear hard anyways, but I do like to find value in things while saving money too. I appreciate good glass, but how much do I need to spend to not have that doubt in the back of my mind that my optic isn't good enough? Part of me understands that I don't need high end stuff for what I do, but the firearms community has the other part of me convinced that I'm doing myself an injustice by being cheap.
     

    ogtruckin

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    Jeff Gurwitch wrote a series of articles called competition to combat crossover. In those articles he talks about various scopes used by sof. I believe he even used a vortex strike eagle in Afghanistan. But seriously just drop the dough on an elcan specter!
     

    Dean C.

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    Myself personally I would consider anything made by Trijicon, Aimpoint , Nightforce , US Optics , Schmitt and Bender and others in that general tier to be duty ready.

    The Vortex Razor line I consider Duty Grade as well, but then again I will spend as much on glass as I did on the rifle to get the most out of whatever platform I am shooting (at least with magnified optics , Aimpoint or Trijicon for Red Dots)
     

    T-DOGG

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    I hope I didn't start the optic version of "my PSA rifle is just as good as" thread. I'm really just trying to figure out what magnified optics aren't considered junk, but don't cost thousands of dollars either. Is there a middle ground? Is $500 enough for a quality scope. $700? Or is $1000 the minimum needed.

    Here's a more exact example of what I'm thinking about. I want to shoot my 5.56 BCM accurately out to 300 yards and see bullet holes at least at the 100 yard line. Will an Athlon Argos BTR 6-24x50 scope accomplish this? Its $313 on Amazon. Or do I need something better? Do I need a different brand and add a few hundred more dollars to the price?
     

    T-DOGG

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    I mentioned the Athlon, because I saw some comments about it being good for the money, but not duty grade like a "sniper" would use.
     

    T-DOGG

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    Myself personally I would consider anything made by Trijicon, Aimpoint , Nightforce , US Optics , Schmitt and Bender and others in that general tier to be duty ready.

    The Vortex Razor line I consider Duty Grade as well, but then again I will spend as much on glass as I did on the rifle to get the most out of whatever platform I am shooting (at least with magnified optics , Aimpoint or Trijicon for Red Dots)
    I know you like your Trijicon 1-8 Accupower. So what led you to choosing that, over other 1-8 scopes? Why not a Primary Arms or Strike Eagle? What about them makes you not want them?
     

    42769vette

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    Duty grade to you, and duty grade to someone else might be different depending on your duty.

    Duty grade relies around durability. Every scope has an x% chance of failure. An S&B might have a 2% chance of failure, a Athlon might have a 15% chance of failure, an NC Star might have a 30% chance. (these are guess's, but I'm probably not far off). The moral of the story is, the more you pay, the lower your odds of issue are. The difference between 2%, and 5% could easily be a couple grand. IF your life depends on that 3% difference then it might very well be worth that couple grand. If your inconvenience depends on that 3% difference, it might not be worth that couple grand.

    Duty grade has nothing to do with glass quality, features, etc. Duty grade is durability.

    For average joe shooter, duty grade has nothing to do with "cheapest scope that can accomplish x task"
     

    T-DOGG

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    Duty grade to you, and duty grade to someone else might be different depending on your duty.

    Duty grade relies around durability. Every scope has an x% chance of failure. An S&B might have a 2% chance of failure, a Athlon might have a 15% chance of failure, an NC Star might have a 30% chance. (these are guess's, but I'm probably not far off). The moral of the story is, the more you pay, the lower your odds of issue are. The difference between 2%, and 5% could easily be a couple grand. IF your life depends on that 3% difference then it might very well be worth that couple grand. If your inconvenience depends on that 3% difference, it might not be worth that couple grand.

    Duty grade has nothing to do with glass quality, features, etc. Duty grade is durability.

    For average joe shooter, duty grade has nothing to do with "cheapest scope that can accomplish x task"
    Yeah that makes total sense to me. I think I've accidentally lumped multiple/separate questions into the whole duty grade question.

    My main and current dilemma is looking at that Athlon scope for what I want to accomplish versus spending alot more money on say a Vortex PST gen2 5-25x50. Will the Vortex be so much better and reliable that it's worth the extra money? I'd hate to spend the extra on the Vortex when the Athlon will accomplish my goal.
     

    42769vette

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    Yeah that makes total sense to me. I think I've accidentally lumped multiple/separate questions into the whole duty grade question.

    My main and current dilemma is looking at that Athlon scope for what I want to accomplish versus spending alot more money on say a Vortex PST gen2 5-25x50. Will the Vortex be so much better and reliable that it's worth the extra money? I'd hate to spend the extra on the Vortex when the Athlon will accomplish my goal.

    For your purpose, the PST gen2 5-25 would be a lot of overkill. I don't think you would appreciate the durability difference between either, but I do think you would appropriate the glass quality difference. If it were me, Id look at some middle ground options like these 2.

    If you really want FFP, and a little better glass.

    https://aaoptics.com/DIAMONDBACK®-TACTICAL-6-24x50-RIFLESCOPES-FFP_p_412.html

    If glass is more important than SFP (should be for your purpose)
    https://aaoptics.com/REFURBISHED--VIPER-HS-T-6-24X50-RIFLESCOPE-VMR-1-MOA_p_265.html

    That said, I've had 10 ish Athlon scopes, and they bug me to be a dealer weekly. There glass quality leaves a ton to be desired, but they knock the feature per price point out of the park.
     

    Dean C.

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    I know you like your Trijicon 1-8 Accupower. So what led you to choosing that, over other 1-8 scopes? Why not a Primary Arms or Strike Eagle? What about them makes you not want them?


    My primary concern was durability and glass quality , I personally don't really shoot rifles a lot but wanted one pretty well equiped one as a "do all rifle" basically a 25-500 yard rifle (when loaded properly of course).

    When I bought my Accupower the primary choices were the Accupower , Vortex Razor 1-6 , Primary Arms Platinum line 1-8 , and the Nightforce NX8. All are in the between $1,100-$1,500 price point. The Trijicon won out because when cost really is not a factor I will take a Trijicon over a Primary Arms any day (not saying PA isn't nice but Trijicon is better IMHO) and compared to the NX8 I preferred the bigger eyebox and reticle of the Trijicon. The Razor is super nice for around $1,000 but having the extra 2 power was important to me.

    The Strike Eagle was not even considered as compared to the above listed it's glass quality is just not even in the same league. IMHO the Strike Eagle will never be more than a plinking level scope. Though if I were limited to a say a $600 budget I would have gotten the Vortex Viper PST Gen II 1-6 as I was really impressed with it for the $$$

    $600~ Vortex Viper 1-6 or Aimpoint Red Dot
    $1,100~ Trijicon Accupower 1-8
    $1,700~ Nightforce NX8 (I would recommend trying one before you buy it due to the small eyebox at 8x personally)

    Hopefully this makes sense
     

    T-DOGG

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    For your purpose, the PST gen2 5-25 would be a lot of overkill. I don't think you would appreciate the durability difference between either, but I do think you would appropriate the glass quality difference. If it were me, Id look at some middle ground options like these 2.

    If you really want FFP, and a little better glass.

    https://aaoptics.com/DIAMONDBACK®-TACTICAL-6-24x50-RIFLESCOPES-FFP_p_412.html

    If glass is more important than SFP (should be for your purpose)
    https://aaoptics.com/REFURBISHED--VIPER-HS-T-6-24X50-RIFLESCOPE-VMR-1-MOA_p_265.html

    That said, I've had 10 ish Athlon scopes, and they bug me to be a dealer weekly. There glass quality leaves a ton to be desired, but they knock the feature per price point out of the park.
    My needs are pretty straight forward. Sit at a bench or lay prone, shoot small groups at known distances during the day. I don't need FFP, but that feature doesn't necessarily bother me either. I don't need fancy, complicated looking reticles with features I'll never use and obscure my view. Don't need illumination either.

    The two you mention are ones I've looked at recently. Question on the HST. I read that they use a wire reticle instead of etched like the PST would have. I'm under the impression that a wire reticle is inferior to one etched into the glass. Or is it that an etched reticle allows for more complex designs?

    In regards to the Athlon, mostly good reviews, but I don't need all those features and some folks mentioned they wish Athlon would strip some of the features and put better glass in them.
     

    T-DOGG

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    My primary concern was durability and glass quality , I personally don't really shoot rifles a lot but wanted one pretty well equiped one as a "do all rifle" basically a 25-500 yard rifle (when loaded properly of course).

    When I bought my Accupower the primary choices were the Accupower , Vortex Razor 1-6 , Primary Arms Platinum line 1-8 , and the Nightforce NX8. All are in the between $1,100-$1,500 price point. The Trijicon won out because when cost really is not a factor I will take a Trijicon over a Primary Arms any day (not saying PA isn't nice but Trijicon is better IMHO) and compared to the NX8 I preferred the bigger eyebox and reticle of the Trijicon. The Razor is super nice for around $1,000 but having the extra 2 power was important to me.

    The Strike Eagle was not even considered as compared to the above listed it's glass quality is just not even in the same league. IMHO the Strike Eagle will never be more than a plinking level scope. Though if I were limited to a say a $600 budget I would have gotten the Vortex Viper PST Gen II 1-6 as I was really impressed with it for the $$$

    $600~ Vortex Viper 1-6 or Aimpoint Red Dot
    $1,100~ Trijicon Accupower 1-8
    $1,700~ Nightforce NX8 (I would recommend trying one before you buy it due to the small eyebox at 8x personally)

    Hopefully this makes sense
    Completely understand. Half of me wants nice stuff, the other half is an inherent cheap ass, it's a constant struggle. I appreciate you explaining your logic on things. I was gonna ask your thoughts about the PST 1-6, but didn't since it wasn't an 8x.
     

    42769vette

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    My needs are pretty straight forward. Sit at a bench or lay prone, shoot small groups at known distances during the day. I don't need FFP, but that feature doesn't necessarily bother me either. I don't need fancy, complicated looking reticles with features I'll never use and obscure my view. Don't need illumination either.

    The two you mention are ones I've looked at recently. Question on the HST. I read that they use a wire reticle instead of etched like the PST would have. I'm under the impression that a wire reticle is inferior to one etched into the glass. Or is it that an etched reticle allows for more complex designs?

    In regards to the Athlon, mostly good reviews, but I don't need all those features and some folks mentioned they wish Athlon would strip some of the features and put better glass in them.

    Wire frame reticle does a few things, but the short version is they are inferior in every way but cost.

    1) lowers manufacturing cost IE final cost
    2) lowers durability
    3) doesnt allow for as complicated a reticle because you lose the ability to "float"

    From a durability standpoint, we see a lot more failures on wire frame reticles once you get to 300 winmag, and beyond. On 556's it wont be an issue. If it were me, I would trade the features, price of the Athlon, for the glass quality of the HST. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to talk about how their Athlon has better glass than the PST, or Razor and remind me why I dont post much anymore, but fact is, those features are not free, and have to come from somewhere. In Athlon it comes from durability some what, and glass a lot.
     

    T-DOGG

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    Wire frame reticle does a few things, but the short version is they are inferior in every way but cost.

    1) lowers manufacturing cost IE final cost
    2) lowers durability
    3) doesnt allow for as complicated a reticle because you lose the ability to "float"

    From a durability standpoint, we see a lot more failures on wire frame reticles once you get to 300 winmag, and beyond. On 556's it wont be an issue. If it were me, I would trade the features, price of the Athlon, for the glass quality of the HST. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to talk about how their Athlon has better glass than the PST, or Razor and remind me why I dont post much anymore, but fact is, those features are not free, and have to come from somewhere. In Athlon it comes from durability some what, and glass a lot.
    I was actually hoping you would chime in, because I know that you know what you're talking about. I've read so many damn reviews the past week from unknown sources my head hurts.
     

    NyleRN

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    For your purpose, the PST gen2 5-25 would be a lot of overkill. I don't think you would appreciate the durability difference between either, but I do think you would appropriate the glass quality difference. If it were me, Id look at some middle ground options like these 2.

    If you really want FFP, and a little better glass.

    https://aaoptics.com/DIAMONDBACK®-TACTICAL-6-24x50-RIFLESCOPES-FFP_p_412.html

    If glass is more important than SFP (should be for your purpose)
    https://aaoptics.com/REFURBISHED--VIPER-HS-T-6-24X50-RIFLESCOPE-VMR-1-MOA_p_265.html

    That said, I've had 10 ish Athlon scopes, and they bug me to be a dealer weekly. There glass quality leaves a ton to be desired, but they knock the feature per price point out of the park.

    Not trying to derail the thread here, but that Athlon glass you say leaves a ton to be desired is also sourced from the same country as the non razor lines of Vortex. Heck, probably the same glass maker. I've looked through viper PSTs and HST. I also owned a couple standard vipers 6.5-20. The Athlons (Argos and Midas) have way better clarity IMO. The vortex optics always seem to have a haze when looking at an object and the object never has clear sharp defined edges. They're always fuzzy and no matter how much I mess with the parallax it never dials out

    ETA: I agree with you that duty grade is about durability
     

    42769vette

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    Same country fors not mean same quality. Since Vortex OWNS the factory, your same place guess is as wrong as it could be. Vortex manufactures glass in China, Philippines, Japan, and America. All factories only make Vortex products for Vortex.
     

    42769vette

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    I was actually hoping you would chime in, because I know that you know what you're talking about. I've read so many damn reviews the past week from unknown sources my head hurts.

    Honestly if you want me, your best bet is to email/PM. Over the years I've got so flustered with the 100% wrong stuff you see on the net, that I rarely post. The only reason I posted here is I feel obligated to post in threads from people who I have shot with/camped in my yard. No matter how long I am in "sales" I have not been able to develop that ability to tell people they have no clue what they are talking about without saying "You have no clue what your talking about"
     

    T-DOGG

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    Honestly if you want me, your best bet is to email/PM. Over the years I've got so flustered with the 100% wrong stuff you see on the net, that I rarely post. The only reason I posted here is I feel obligated to post in threads from people who I have shot with/camped in my yard. No matter how long I am in "sales" I have not been able to develop that ability to tell people they have no clue what they are talking about without saying "You have no clue what your talking about"
    I didn't think you'd remember me. Hope all is well down there. I should have just PM'd you to start with instead of starting the thread, but I was bored at work today and it was on my mind.
     
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