New to the carry optics game...

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  • bwframe

    Loneranger
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    I was gonna wait until I got old and could no longer see the iron sights on my pistols to go to the red dot sight. Then some circumstances changed, when I upgraded my carry gun. The new gun was a MOS version.

    I thought the MOS slot would be great for when I got old and would just stay covered until then. It didn't take long for me to remember that I had a couple of Vortex Viper RDS's (thank you Allen/AA Optics) laying around that had been on and off of long guns. That started it, next came the suppressor Ameriglo irons.

    Now I'm reading old threads, watching a lot of YouTube and actually dry firing (as opposed to lying about doing it regularly.:n00b:)

    I'm finding that the LONG time it took me to learn how to find the front sight is a bit counter intuitive to finding the dot. There is a learning curve to the RDS. It's not initially the magic cheater sight that will solve all issues.

    Also finding through study of the subject the dot may well be a solution to my, struggling for focus, middle aged eyes? Supposedly folks who have mastered the RDS on a handgun report that they are better on the iron sights when they return to them?

    I'm sure I need to be shopping for an expensive RMR sight for the best tactical cool guy experience, but for now the Viper seems to be fine. There is a lot more dry fire and range time before actually calling this system ready for my EDC.

    I'd like to hear from others with experience on this. Tips and tricks appreciated. :ingo:
     

    ACC

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    I am right there with you. Been carrying an EDC with a red dot on it for the past year or so. Also, recently decided to switch divisions in USPSA from limited to Carrry Optics. Got tired of being penalized for shooting 9mm in Limited.

    I have decided to fully commit to red dots on pistols. Taking a training course this summer and will go with an M&P compact with RMR.
     

    obijohn

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    Like most, you are fighting procedural memory of your draw stroke. You simply need to reprogram your push out to full extension with the pistol held a bit lower. Come on over some time and I'll show you what I mean by that statement. And the good news is that it will only take several thousand repititions to reprogram to the point it will be as comfortable as your iron sights.
     

    gregkl

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    No experience here.

    However, I am close behind you. I am old and have struggled with two things since I took up shooting handguns a few years ago.

    1. I am cross dominant and require reader glasses to sharpen the front sight.
    2. I struggle with the whole idea of focusing on the front sight. Everything I have learned in life is to keep your eyes on the target.

    And I have two things that are keeping the brakes on me committing to optics.

    1. Finances are all directed to getting my home livable. Investing in getting set up for a red dot is not in the cards unless I sell something which I'm thinking of selling a bunch of stuff. :) I also don't want to spend the money if I end up not actually using it.

    2. I kinda feel like I'm giving up on learning how to shoot with iron sights.

    I have a Venom on my Ruger MKII. I'm going to see how much I take to it this year. And I will continue with irons on my 9 mm until I get in a financial position to be able to buy something. With that going on, I should become sure of what I want to do.
     

    NHT3

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    I've been using one about a year on my EDC and usually shoot the carry gun match with one. I'm very comfortable with it now and find it more intuitive that I imagined it would be. I know you live south and I'd be happy to talk with you about it or meet you at Shoot point blank if you like to go over what works for me. To say it's a blessing for "older eyes" is an understatement in my case. :) PM me if you like.

    0RFaFoS.jpg

    [FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” ….Coach[/FONT]
     
    Last edited:

    Backpacker

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    I use a Holosun 507c-GR optic on my Glock 17. The 507c has a 32 moa circle and / or a small dot. The 32 moa circle is easier for me to pick up on quickly. The "gr" means green optic. It is also available in red and gold for the colorblind. It also has a solar charging cell and shake awake technology.
     

    riverman67

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    I've been working at it off and on for just over a year BW. I'm getting better at it , it's becoming more second nature. Some health/ Motivation issues slowed my progress some last year.
    I still dot hunt on occasion and I really hate minor scoring but I carry my dot gun now.
     

    cedartop

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    Where to start. I have been living the Red dot life for about 10 years now on my EDC and 4 years for competition. (though last year really doesn't count as I only shot one match, and HORRORS it was IDPA) I have been to a number of Red Dot specific classes and was an original Suarez certified Red Dot pistol instructor. That being said, if you want to get serious I would recommend taking a class. Preferably from Scott Jedlinski, Steve Fisher or Aaron Cowan. As you have noticed there are some significant differences between Irons and a RDS and the right instructor can show you the best practices and save you time. There is also a difference between open class frame mounted RDS guns and slide mounted RDS carry guns.

    As with many things this breaks down into two categories. Hardware and software. The software is pretty much figured out by now and just requires a lot of work. Dry fire is your friend. Do a lot of one handed dry fire. How can I tell someone who hasn't done this? If there is a situation where a one handed shot is required there is a significant delay while they search for their dot. Hardware is a whole different story. It is still in the development stages. If you spend much time with Carry Optics competitors you will find out they all fail. I know guys with multiple (7 and 8) sights just to keep a couple up and running while others are getting fixed. Right now the RMR is the only one I trust to EDC though I am currently vetting the Holosun as it as gotten some postitive feedback from people in the know. I love my DPP on my game gun but many people have had issues with those as well. Every sight out there has drawbacks. If they are not junk, which many are once you mount them on a slide, you quickly find things you don't like. Things like having to take the sight off to replace the battery, or poor battery life, or poorly designed brightness buttons, or adjustment dials that don't have positive clicks or need a tool to adjust, or etc.. There is no perfect optic yet though some are better than others.

    You mention it is not an instant answer. You are right. Some people don't notice it because they suck anyway. If you are a decent shot you will probably be slower up close at first. This is largely because people tend to overconfirm the dot. Some of that is also the time it takes to get that initial sight picture until you get your index down. For me this was 7 yards and in. Even though many point shoot at that distance the dot had a way of sucking me in and making me look for it. Good recoil control is a big help to using a slide mounted dot gun. Take a Bill drill as an example. With adequate recoil control you can shoot a 2 second bill drill and still keep track of the dot through the whole string. It will be a streak, not a dot, but you can keep it in the window. There are also alternate aiming methods that a good instructor would cover with you. 10 yards and out the dot really shines.

    Drawbacks? Besides the aforementioned hardware and learning issues, there are things like dot washout (especially bad with low angle sun in your face or at your back), heavy rain, price, and some others I am forgetting right now.
     

    gregkl

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    I have been to a number of Red Dot specific classes and was an original Suarez certified Red Dot pistol instructor. That being said, if you want to get serious I would recommend taking a class. Preferably from Scott Jedlinski, Steve Fisher or Aaron Cowan.

    Hardware is a whole different story. It is still in the development stages. If you spend much time with Carry Optics competitors you will find out they all fail. I know guys with multiple (7 and 8) sights just to keep a couple up and running while others are getting fixed. Right now the RMR is the only one I trust to EDC though I am currently vetting the Holosun as it as gotten some postitive feedback from people in the know. There is no perfect optic yet though some are better than others.

    Drawbacks? Besides the aforementioned hardware and learning issues, there are things like dot washout (especially bad with low angle sun in your face or at your back), heavy rain, price, and some others I am forgetting right now.

    Thanks for the great insight and information.

    When you say RMR, are you speaking about the Trijicon RMR? I am not quite up to speed on the lingo yet.

    It would be a tough pill for me to swallow to have a $500-600 red dot fail on me. These guys that own 6 and 7, are they lower priced models? Or are they the RMR that you speak of?

    And do any of the folks you mentioned for training, hold clinics around Indiana?
     

    cedartop

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    Thanks for the great insight and information.

    When you say RMR, are you speaking about the Trijicon RMR? I am not quite up to speed on the lingo yet.

    It would be a tough pill for me to swallow to have a $500-600 red dot fail on me. These guys that own 6 and 7, are they lower priced models? Or are they the RMR that you speak of?


    And do any of the folks you mentioned for training, hold clinics around Indiana?

    Yes, RMR is a Trijicon.

    No, typically competition shooters aren't using RMR's (though some do) in large part because of the smaller window. Up until recently one of the common competition optics has been the Leupold DeltaPoint Pro. There are some others out there now giving it a run such as the Sig Sauer Romeo's. I would like to try out their top model but it is around $700.

    Yes, they do come to the area. Aaron was in Indiana last year and Scott is in the Chicagoland area at Alpha range somewhat regularly. I have not checked Steve Fishers schedule in a while.
     

    bwframe

    Loneranger
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    Thanks guys! Great information here.

    I've been watching vids from all the guys mentioned and there are more in the que. Doing lots of dry fire reps, including SHO/WHO. :D About the time I feel like the dot's there every time I push out, I put the gun in the weak hand and push out. :xmad:

    Sounds like I need to get a lot more serious about investing in the RMR. I'm watching one on ebay for $420, further research needed.

    What size dot do you guys shoot?

    Year before last, I found that the 6MOA dot was much faster to pick up for me than the 3MOA, on the PCC. I'm thinking that is the way for me to go on the RMR. My Vipers are 6MOA and they seem to pick up quickly?
     

    cedartop

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    Thanks guys! Great information here.

    I've been watching vids from all the guys mentioned and there are more in the que. Doing lots of dry fire reps, including SHO/WHO. :D About the time I feel like the dot's there every time I push out, I put the gun in the weak hand and push out. :xmad:

    Sounds like I need to get a lot more serious about investing in the RMR. I'm watching one on ebay for $420, further research needed.

    What size dot do you guys shoot?

    Year before last, I found that the 6MOA dot was much faster to pick up for me than the 3MOA, on the PCC. I'm thinking that is the way for me to go on the RMR. My Vipers are 6MOA and they seem to pick up quickly?

    Size of dot is a very subjective thing. I prefer smaller, some larger. As I am sure you know they aren't consistent across the board even if they claim the same size. Intensity matters and so does your eye. Some people can't see a clear dot because of astigmatism and that may affect which brand they choose or what size dot.
     

    gregkl

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    Thanks guys! Great information here.

    I've been watching vids from all the guys mentioned and there are more in the que. Doing lots of dry fire reps, including SHO/WHO. :D About the time I feel like the dot's there every time I push out, I put the gun in the weak hand and push out. :xmad:

    Sounds like I need to get a lot more serious about investing in the RMR. I'm watching one on ebay for $420, further research needed.

    What size dot do you guys shoot?

    Year before last, I found that the 6MOA dot was much faster to pick up for me than the 3MOA, on the PCC. I'm thinking that is the way for me to go on the RMR. My Vipers are 6MOA and they seem to pick up quickly?

    We should get together some time. I think we live close enough for a beer or coffee. Sounds like I may be following in your footsteps.
     

    NHT3

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    BW, personally I prefer the 2 or 3 MOA dot, aim small miss small. :) Don't underestimate some of the less expensive dots like a Venom. IMHO the RMR is over priced and over rated. I've used the life out of a Venom with no problems and it seems to me the Deltapoint pro I have is either too bright or not bright enough and the Venom suits me much better in that respect.
    When you are shooting WHO concentrate on pointing your index finger at the target rather than looking for the dot and I think you will find the dot will be there.

    [FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” ….Coach[/FONT]
     

    gregkl

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    BW, personally I prefer the 2 or 3 MOA dot, aim small miss small. :) Don't underestimate some of the less expensive dots like a Venom. IMHO the RMR is over priced and over rated. I've used the life out of a Venom with no problems and it seems to me the Deltapoint pro I have is either too bright or not bright enough and the Venom suits me much better in that respect.
    When you are shooting WHO concentrate on pointing your index finger at the target rather than looking for the dot and I think you will find the dot will be there.

    [FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” ….Coach[/FONT]

    Charlie, I have a Venom on my Ruger .22. If I wanted to dip my toes into a RDS on my 9, would getting a dovetail mount for my M&P and adding the Venom be a good way to see how I like it?

    I'm not sure I want to mill a slide for a Venom and be locked into that RDS if they won't hold up well.

    I don't have a lot of confidence in Vortex for other than .22LR caliber, but if think it will hold up, I'd be willing to try it.
     

    bwframe

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    We should get together some time. I think we live close enough for a beer or coffee. Sounds like I may be following in your footsteps.

    Sure thing. If nothing else, the MSG3 meeting is the first Wed every month. We are now meeting at Mateos Buffet, unless the kung flue scares us out of there or anywhere.
     

    cedartop

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    BW, personally I prefer the 2 or 3 MOA dot, aim small miss small. :) Don't underestimate some of the less expensive dots like a Venom. IMHO the RMR is over priced and over rated. I've used the life out of a Venom with no problems and it seems to me the Deltapoint pro I have is either too bright or not bright enough and the Venom suits me much better in that respect.
    When you are shooting WHO concentrate on pointing your index finger at the target rather than looking for the dot and I think you will find the dot will be there.

    [FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” ….Coach[/FONT]

    I'm glad they work for you. The life on my first one was zero, the second one about a month, the third one I sold before it went bad. They do have a good warranty. Most people who use them in matches get to avail themselves of it quite often.
     

    EyeCarry

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    Charlie, I have a Venom on my Ruger .22. If I wanted to dip my toes into a RDS on my 9, would getting a dovetail mount for my M&P and adding the Venom be a good way to see how I like it?

    I'm not sure I want to mill a slide for a Venom and be locked into that RDS if they won't hold up well.

    I don't have a lot of confidence in Vortex for other than .22LR caliber, but if think it will hold up, I'd be willing to try it.
    bwframe and gregkl, my Venom Viper is going on it's 2nd or 3rd steel season without a problem. Mine is the 6moa. 6 is much easier to pick up for steel and for sunny days at the Riley club. I would'nt mind trying an even larger dot for what I use it for. I started out with a ADE 3moa on a 9mm Canik SFX. I drug the ADE back out two weeks ago to put on a .22 that I'll be using for steel. I'd rather have a 6moa but the 3 will do for now on that. Even this cheap ADE has held up on the 9mm. It is just not the same quality. For $50-ish it is cheap enough to try if you are just dipping your toes in. I even see that they are making a 6moa now. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ade-RD3-01...130633?hash=item4b6857c889:g:35UAAOSwKLVdQcoV It is almost $90. I have seen Vortex for as low as $179.
     
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