358 wssm for deer hunting

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  • scout5

    Plinker
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    Dec 15, 2008
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    Charlestown
    Hello, I'm new to this forum. I pick up some information r/t 358 wssm wildcat being developed that is legal to deer hunt with here in Indiana from another forum and found information leading me to this site. This is something I thought of doing on my own when I read the new rifle laws. Seems simple, neck it up to 35 cal, shorten the case and there you go. Problem was I am not a gunsmith and do not have a shop. I see some are already doing it, that's great. I need info on this. I contacted a man in MN who is doing AR-15 uppers but I am interested in a bolt action rifle.

    Can any one share information with me on this matter. i.e. is there a smith local (I live in Southern IN), what kind of ballitics is it giving, or anything that can help me in this endevor.

    Thanks..............Scout
     

    melensdad

    Grandmaster
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    Apr 2, 2008
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    Contact Mike Millie at Dedicated Technologies. He is making rifles for an Indiana legal 358 WSSM. He helped develop the cartridge and should be able to sell you everything you need. The round is supposed to be very flat shooting, hard hitting. The ballistics beat the 350 Remington Mag from what I understand, but don't hold me to that.

    Here is a link to his website: Welcome to the Dtech Superstore

    There is another round, not nearly as potent, called the 35 Gremlin. Its a 6.5 Grendel necked up to 358 caliber. It is pushing out ballistics that are slightly better (about 100fps) than the standard 35 Remington cartridge.
     

    scout5

    Plinker
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    Thanks for the replies. I've already contacted Mike Millie, he only does the AR-15 platforms and I really want a bolt action. He did offer to help with specs, dies etc.

    I'll look on the other threads mentioned.

    Is there a way to do a search on here?

    Scout
     

    NDhunter

    Marksman
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    Dec 8, 2008
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    North Central IN
    On an Indiana hunting forum there is a guy who has one of these in a Winchester model 70 short action, and it is sweet. He says it is easily a 600 yard gun for deer. It sure sounds like something worth looking into.

    But, I have spent hours looking into this and haven't found any one besides Mike that publically deals with the .35 WSSM yet. Good luck and tell us when you find someone.
     

    fireball168

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    Dec 16, 2008
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    Clinton
    I built a 358 WSSM almost two years ago, on a WSSM Model 70 action.

    I've called my version the 358 BFG.

    When limited to the OAL in the WSSM action 2.360", it will easily do everything a 358 Winchester will, and then some.

    Cases are necked up in several steps to .358, then neck turned to .012" thickness - as they start looking pretty rough even after a couple of annealings.

    Brass life is nearly indefinate, if you lose a piece of brass it is typically at the first firing when they crack at the neck to shoulder junction.

    A couple of options, if you've got a WSM Savage action I've usually got a few McGowen drop in barrels around.

    AJ Brown in Bloomfield or Greg Tannel in Colorado both have access to my reamers, I've got dies and preformed brass in stock.

    The Gremlin is mine too, I've got a sizeable order of basic brass and dies placed now - lots of potential in a bolt gun like a Interarms Mini Mark X, Remington 799 or CZ 527.

    Send me a note if you'd like to talk about it.

    IMG_0696.jpg


    BFG Cartridges, the Home of the 358 Grendel, 358 BFG, 450 BFG, 458 BFG and 500 BFG
     
    Last edited:

    scout5

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    fireball, I just type up a long e-mail with a million questions only to be told I have to make 10 post before I can send an e-mail. I am very interested in obtaining one of these rifles. I'm assuming the savage wsm action may have problems feeding the wssm rounds, so would it be a single shot, if I used a savage action?

    I've never reloaded so this is going to be a cost investment and a learning curve at the same time. I'm fairly handy so I shouldn't have much problem picking it up. What reloading manuals should I read to help me get started? What brand reloader are your dies made for? If I can get a rifle put together I am interested in obtaining some dies and brass.

    If I used a savage action and had the proper gauges I understand head spacing a savage is fairly simple with the barrel nut system. So if I obtained a savage action and ordered a chambered barrel from you I should be able to set this rifle up if I have a set of gauges?? If so where do I obtain the gauges? This may be useful to me since if the rifle works out others in my family will most likely want one.

    Thanks...........Scout
     

    melensdad

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    fireball168

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    Well...I just discovered that I can't reply to the PM's, yet.

    Anyway - the Savage WSM will typically feed the cartridge pretty well. The Winchester WSSM action is really the way to go as far as I'm concerned, but you are stuck with the shorter OAL.

    The Hornady Custom Shop makes all of my dies. As of this time, I'm the only source for my specific setups. I usually have several sitting on the shelf.

    I've got a headspacing gauge +.001" over a Go that I rent out with a barrel sale.

    You're not going to find any published reloading data at this point, although all of my data and a good bit I've accumulated from others with copycat chamberiings is available. I've been talking with Hornady and Nosler to provide them a complete rifle for load data work up and inclusion in their future reloading manuals.

    If you're just getting started, buy a Sierra , Hornady and Nosler reloading manual and get cozy with them. Play with the equipment that others have to find out what you like.


    As to the Gremlin:

    The only setback with the Gremlin right now is sourcing magazines. The supplier that made the magazines that work is too busy kicking out regular AR magazines right now to fool around with a small order for me.

    180's at 2325 fps out of a 17" barrel and no signs of pressure yet.
     

    melensdad

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    As to the Gremlin:

    The only setback with the Gremlin right now is sourcing magazines. The supplier that made the magazines that work is too busy kicking out regular AR magazines right now to fool around with a small order for me.

    180's at 2325 fps out of a 17" barrel and no signs of pressure yet.

    That would sure make a nice handy deer rifle based on the AR15 platform, light, easy to handle, and probably a soft recoil too. Can't be but about half the recoil energy of a 308. Any idea what the bullet velocity & energy is at 100, 200 and 300 yards?
     

    fireball168

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    I'm of the opinion that the Gremlin is better suited to a lot of casual shooters.

    There's been a fair amount of folks that had to have (at least try) the WSSM, and really didn't care for the recoil, even when they were previously using 3" slug guns.

    A sub 6lb lightweight bolt gun is doable with the Gremlin.

    With a Cav Arms receiver my 17" test mule weighs in at just less than 7.25 lbs with a 4x Leupold.

    Gremlin.jpg
     

    melensdad

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    The thing that I don't like about the 358 WSSM for Indiana deer is that it is overkill for both the deer and the shoulder. No question it would be as flat shooting as you could find in a 358 caliber round, but to what practical end?

    The 35 Gremlin looks to be plenty good to drop a deer where it stands farther out than most people can shoot and the recoil energy is going to be far more modest. At 626 foot pounds of energy at 400 yards that is enough to drop an elk, let alone a little Hoosier whitetail. If the shooter can find a 400 yard shot in this state and manage the bullet drop the load will easily do its job. Heck in my back yard we often have 10 to 20 deer and shots are in the 100 yard range, I'd expect a clean through and through shot, destroying both shoulders in the process.
     

    NDhunter

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    Keep posting to get to 10 fireball and keep us up to date on how all of this goes. It seems that many are interested, as I know I am.

    Some people just want the new, cool technology, and for Indiana deer hunting this is it!

    Only one question, do you think the DNR will soon notice their overrun and do something to outlaw these cartridges in modern rifles?
     

    fireball168

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    I'd be surprised if they come after the wildcat cartridges and their users.

    Overall, I think that most folks that spend the time and money playing with these alternative chamberings have got enough invested that irresponsibility with them is going to be unusual.




    AJ Brown also has his own 358 BR, a neat little cartridge I played around with the last time I was at his place. It'll run in most any standard .473 bolt face action and should offer performance very similar to the Gremlin.
     

    kludge

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    I would buy an AR if I could get one chambered in .45 Win Mag. Double duty as a deer rifle and a very potent Home Defense cartridge; it makes more sense to me than the either the 5.56 or .30 Carbine that I currently have.

    But I'm with the others, as soon as I heard about the new law I immediately thought of .45 Win Mag and necking up a 7.62x39 to .35 caliber. The 9x39 russian doesn't exactly meet the law and well, we normal serfs can't get those guns anyway. I can't imagine a scenario where I'd have anything more than a 100 to 150 yard shot in the places I've hunted anyway.

    I want something though, and if its going to be a "hunting only" gun I guess I'd rather build up a Savage bolt action for .35 Gremlin than buy an AR for a wildcat.
     

    melensdad

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    I would doubt if the DNR would change their rules to exclude these wildcats. The DNR lists the 458 Socom as a legal round, and from what I hear some DNR officers have 458 Socom AR15s for deer hunting so why would they be upset about something like the 35 Gremlin out of an AR15? The 458 Socom would have more energy the the Gremlin round so there is really no justification to outlaw a weaker round. The 358 WSSM may be more powerful, but again, it conforms with all the rules, and realistically there are going to be very few of them out there, and those who take the time to build the wildcat rifles and loads are probably among the most careful of the shooters in the woods.
     

    swilk

    Plinker
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    Dec 17, 2008
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    Interesting topic. I was just getting ready to have Mark Penrod build me a gun based on the .358 Grant cartridge. The .358 Grant is a wsm cased trimmed to 1.62" and necked to accept a .358 bullet.

    However ..... I found this:

    http://www.matchgrademachine.com/gunshop/product.php?productid=17456&cat=325&page=1

    Seems they offer a .35wssm drop in barrel for the Encore. Seems this would be a far cheaper way to try out one of these rounds than jumping in with both feet and having a bolt gun made.


    Am I missing something or would this be a logical way to go?
     

    swilk

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    fireball168 ... is your .358 bfg just a .35 wssm with a different name? Would your preformed brass work in one of these 35wssm encore barrels?
     

    swilk

    Plinker
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    Dec 17, 2008
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    Or ... let me back up.

    What would you suggest a person do to try one of these rounds without commiting a couple thousand $$ to do so?
     
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