.38 vs .380 -- differences?

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  • Effingham

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    This is an embarrassing question... but I have to admit that I don't really understand something about ammo.

    I've got 9mm and .22s here, but the question is on .38 ammo.

    Is there any difference between .38 and .380? The mathematician in me maintains that they're exactly the same thing, but the fact that people make that distinction in guns implies to me that they AREN'T the same. As one who's never owned a .38 (or .380) shooting gun, can someone enlighten me about this?

    Like I said, it's an embarrassing question, but I've always wondered...


    Tony
     

    VERT

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    .380 generally refers to a cartridge used in a .380 semi automatic pistol. The cartridge is also referred to as 9x17 or 9mm Kurt (short). Common guns that use this cartridge are the Walther PPK, Walther PK380, KelTec .380, Ruger LCP, Sig P230/232, Beretta 84, Bersa .380, etc.

    .38 is usually referring to the .38 special revolver cartridge. Think snubbies or Smith & Wesson model 10.

    Now is the question to compare these two cartridges? .380 is commonly loaded with a 90 - 102 grain bullet. .38 Special is commonly 110 - 158 grain. Depending on the barrel length the .380 in an auto will provide more velocity. I personally consider the .38 special in a snub or .380 in a medium sized automatic to be the minimum for a self defense handgun.
     

    armedindy

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    whoa, i didnt know .380 had more velocity..interesting. but .38 sp has more penetration because the bullet is so much heavier i beleive...?someone help us out
     

    canamscott

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    Here is a very general way to keep it straight. Usually the first two numbers are the measurement of the barrel diameter, therefore .38 inch. Whatever follows that is a modifier that refers to the shell casing.

    Example; .22s, .22lr, .22 mag. Each is a .22 caliber bullet, but three different casings and different powder loads. But that different powder can translate into capacity for a heavier bullet.

    So a .38 special and .380 acp could use the same bullet, but the difference in brass has different powder capacities, different chamber retention, and different extraction. It is common usage to consider the extra 0 on .380 as the modifier to keep them straight from each other.

    That is why it is critical to know what your firearm chambers and get only that. Here is a link to a cool poster that compares contemporary cartridges in common usage, 140 rifle and 41 handgun.
    IHEA Store, Cartridge Comparison Guide Special Pricing

    There are a few exceptions to this rule, but a rule of thumb is a good place to start.
     

    VERT

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    whoa, i didnt know .380 had more velocity..interesting. but .38 sp has more penetration because the bullet is so much heavier i beleive...?someone help us out

    Depends on barrel length and load. So evaluate my original statement with some discretion. But yes factory .380 out of an automatic with a 3.5" barrel has more velocity then a standard .38 special out of a 2"-4" barrel. As barrels get shorter a person loses some bullet velocity. This is one reason why the discussions about whether a person should carry FMJ or HP bullets in their micro, mini, pocket, mouse gun. .380 is a somewhat marginal round to begin with and when you stick it in a smaller gun....there is the question of how or if a hollow point bullet will expand.

    Yes .38 special is heavier. Bullet weight & velocity both figure into muzzle energy.
     

    XtremeVel

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    (2) totally different cartridges !

    .380 = .355 dia bullet... Same as 9mm, just lighter weights...

    .38 = .357 dia.... Same as you would use in .357
     

    Classic

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    For a more detailed look, go to any of the major handloading sites and look at their loading tables. Some of them compute muzzle energy (a function of bullet weight and velocity) that should be useful for your question. My old paper copy Speer Number 9 manual shows a maximum muzzle energy for a 38 Special 344 ft/lbs, using a 160 gr softpoint and 9.9 grains of 630 powder at 944 ft/sec. The maximum muzzle energy for a 380 is 223 ft/lbs of muzzle energy, using a 100 grain hollow point and 4.4 grains of Unique powder for 1004 ft/sec. Of course there are many other factors to consider like how the energy is transferred to the target, hardness of the target, etc.:twocents:
     

    XtremeVel

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    .380 doesn''t have to contend with losing a little velocity from the cylinder gap such as a .38... Along with lighter bullets, this doesn't shock me...

    I don't know, but is .380 also considered a high pressure round being it's case capacity is so small ????
     

    Effingham

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    This is fascinating. Thanks for all the explanations.

    I admit to being a bit nonplussed that .38 = .357. So why do we even make the distinction? (In addition to this just being mathematically and logically WRONG on so many levels....)
     

    VERT

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    This is fascinating. Thanks for all the explanations.

    I admit to being a bit nonplussed that .38 = .357. So why do we even make the distinction? (In addition to this just being mathematically and logically WRONG on so many levels....)

    To be honest I am not sure why they call it a .38 special instead of .36 special. Marketing I suppose. I am sure somebody will be along shortly with the history lesson. But .38 special is different then .357 magnum. The difference is in the length of the case itself. Hence why a person can shoot .38 special in a .357 magnum revolver.

    Oh and don't confuse .38 special with the other .38 revolver cartridges out there. One example would be .38 Smith & Wesson. Different cartridge!
     

    Classic

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    The 357 Magnum was engineered as an improvement over the 38 Special. The Greater powder charges used in the 357 Magnum create chamber pressures that would likely blow the top off of a 38 Special. So 357 Magnum firearms are designed and constructed in much beefier manner than the those made for the 38 Special. That is why you can shoot a 38 Special in a 357 Magnum weapon but can't (shouldn't) fit a 357 Magnum cartridge into a 38 Special firearm.
     

    kludge

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    Not a dumb question at all...

    As mentioned 9mm Luger (Para, NATO, 9x19mm) .380ACP (9mm short/kutz/corto), .38 Super, 9x18mm, .357 Sig... and others use 9mm (0.355") bullets.

    .38 SPL, .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum and a few others use 0.357" bullets.

    The "38" caliber designation came about because the original "38" caliber cartridges were loaded in cylinders that were through-bored (just like the cap and ball revolvers) and used heeled bullets (like the .22LR still uses), i.e. the bullet was the same diameter as the case.

    Later in revolver development when the bullets were loaded inside the case, as they are now in paractically every cartridge (except for most of the .22 rimfires), they made the bullet smaller to fit inside the case but kept the "38" caliber designation; and the chambers are no longer through-bored, but are cut with a chamber reamer.

    Same with the "44" caliber catridges where the bullets measure 0.429".
     

    IndianaGTI

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    The distinctions are the names of the various cartridges. We are talking about cartridges here, not bullets. The bullet is the part that sits in the cartridge that is the projectile.

    A .357 and a .38 can use the same bullet but are not the same cartridge. A .223 Rem and a 5.56x45 use the exact same bullet but are not the same cartridge.

    When a new cartridge is invented, it is given a name. The name may bear as much relationship to the bullet it fires as naming it Brenda. Normally, however, the name is close to the diameter of the projectile. A .50 Beowulf will probably not actually slay Grendel, but a .50 BMG might. They do both have projectiles which are approximately 1/2" in diameter though.

    Many companies have built cartridges and each one gets a name. When Sig Sauer created the .357 Sig, it was given the name .357 Sig. The projectile is actually more like a 9mm fired out of a bottlenecked .40 s&w case but since it was Sig's attempt at recreating 125g .357 magnum ballistics in an auto, Sig named it .357 Sig instead of 9mm Sig which would have better described the bullet it fired.

    Just a few thoughts.
     

    blamecharles

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    The distinctions are the names of the various cartridges. We are talking about cartridges here, not bullets. The bullet is the part that sits in the cartridge that is the projectile.

    A .357 and a .38 can use the same bullet but are not the same cartridge. A .223 Rem and a 5.56x45 use the exact same bullet but are not the same cartridge.

    When a new cartridge is invented, it is given a name. The name may bear as much relationship to the bullet it fires as naming it Brenda. Normally, however, the name is close to the diameter of the projectile. A .50 Beowulf will probably not actually slay Grendel, but a .50 BMG might. They do both have projectiles which are approximately 1/2" in diameter though.

    Many companies have built cartridges and each one gets a name. When Sig Sauer created the .357 Sig, it was given the name .357 Sig. The projectile is actually more like a 9mm fired out of a bottlenecked .40 s&w case but since it was Sig's attempt at recreating 125g .357 magnum ballistics in an auto, Sig named it .357 Sig instead of 9mm Sig which would have better described the bullet it fired.

    Just a few thoughts.

    Great bit of info I was wondering about the difference just hadn't got around to finding out.
     

    Indy_Guy_77

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    With very very few exceptions, the only way to keep all this straight is rote memorization!

    It's not like Pontiac cars.. G4, G6, G8...where you could tell which car was bigger based on the name.

    Many cartridges bear names of their developers/companies. There are plenty of "H&H" cartridges.. .375 H&H = Holland & Holland. They've developed several big-bore hunting cartridges.

    A handful of very popular cartridges also bear "ACP" as part of their official name. .32ACP, .25ACP, .45ACP, and the afore mentioned .38ACP (The "real" name of the .380 cartridge)... "Automatic Colt Pistol". -Developed mainly by John Moses Browning & Colt for their firearms.

    You'll also see several cartridges that are denoted "WCF". That stands for Winchester Center Fire. Cartridges developed by the Winchester company for their rifles. Thing with those, though, is that Remington also used the cartridges in their guns. Only they didn't want to put "Winchester" in the name so they called them something else. "30WCF" = .30-30. However, the "WCF" has pretty much lost favor with ammo companies, but many older guns still bear this designation.

    You can also get REALLY confused over the names of just ONE cartridge. Again, as mentioned above: Typically when referring to "9mm", it's the 9x19 cartridge. Also the 9mm NATO, 9mm Parabellum, 9mm x 19mm.

    So...rote memorization it is.

    And don't feel bad if you can't remember them all. There are hundreds of different cartridges out there; and a few names per cartridge.

    Just read threads...get a few books...read some more...

    -J-

    EDIT: And another thing... The .357 Sig cartridge (Developed in conjunction with Speer & Sig Sauer) is called simply .357 Auto on Glock pistols. Seems that they too didn't want their main competition's name anywhere on their product.
     
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