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  1. #21
    Marksman Merrixs's Avatar

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    I think this is very interesting, but my question is how much of this if any can be safely applied to your standard 12 gage pump like my Mossberg 835?

  2. #22
    Plinker

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    The stronger plastic case loads will work in the Mossy
    like 600gr at 1800, lighter saboted loads faster, with
    our slower powder loads. Ie more of a slower powder,
    which by the way makes reloading safer and cases last longer.
    Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
    with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
    section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
    slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
    powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
    so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
    isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
    accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
    This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
    setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
    it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
    seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
    Slug is .629" diameter.



    Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
    the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
    nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.



    Here is older picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
    Man what nice old guns.



    Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
    close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
    might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
    sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed


  3. #23
    Plinker

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    Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
    like ones we want to get made for reloading.
    They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
    I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
    barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
    Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
    The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
    base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
    have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
    make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.



    Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
    different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
    I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
    All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
    near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
    cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
    test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
    the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
    system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
    and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

    What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent
    weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
    sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
    That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
    Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
    percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
    cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
    disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
    The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
    both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.



    Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
    with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.



    Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
    around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
    we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
    to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
    the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
    reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
    All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
    And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
    being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
    over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
    third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
    Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

  4. #24
    Plinker

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    Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
    looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
    can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
    If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
    high as others who have to set up complete machines.
    We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
    made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
    have similiar design as the ones pictured below
    but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
    with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
    what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
    With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
    Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
    We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
    58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
    as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
    58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
    The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
    and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
    40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.



    Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
    Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
    585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
    fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
    my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
    They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
    Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.



    Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
    break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
    break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
    actions like this and great value for no more
    than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
    We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
    use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
    working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
    type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
    smooth barrels.



    Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
    a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
    2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
    on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
    on nice looking slug gun.Ed





  5. #25
    Plinker

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    The sabots we are working with, take at least 15 different
    58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of
    sabot at .733" with all of them in. There are 5 Dixie
    Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.
    Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading
    slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

    Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")
    Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs
    Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.
    Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.
    And they are all good slugs at a saving especially
    when folks cast their own.

    I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading
    suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a
    quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.



    From the research on sabot patents and testing by various
    of our readers, the sabots can't be undersize, or accuracy
    at high speeds isn't possible. I get questions about how
    to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases
    for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need
    to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not
    fullbore cast....Why; they want lighter for less recoil in
    regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,
    they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't
    have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs
    for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover
    a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing
    their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive
    factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much
    more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,
    one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from
    a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.
    Behind are Lyman and Lee 58cal molds. Got more coming of
    different 58cal weights, clear down to 315gr. My casting
    friend will get them and as soon a we get somebody making
    the sabot, he can aid the cause by making slugs.
    Some of the Lyman and Lee slugs are more streamlined than
    modst big bore rifle bullets as you can see in picture.



    Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action
    we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like
    the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,
    an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,
    to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have
    setup on NEFs, and CBCs.



    Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,
    and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.
    Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like
    all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels
    and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the
    extra weight.


  6. #26
    I'm SOMEBODY, Recognize ME! Caleb's Avatar

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    Where can you get a 4 bore and how much do they run?

  7. #27
    Marksman

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    Wow this is amazing information. Tag for updates.

  8. #28
    Plinker

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    You'll have to build your own. or pay someone like Colin Stolzer.
    I'll have plans to do a falling block one later this year.

    Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
    and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
    The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
    The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
    We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
    style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
    aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
    due the economy.





    Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
    Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
    And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
    want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.



    4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
    gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
    It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
    20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed




  9. #29
    Plinker

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    Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
    In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
    and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
    shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
    you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
    wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
    straight as possible for accuracy.

    Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
    velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
    which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
    slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
    of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
    sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
    fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
    with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.







    Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
    with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.



    Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch rounds called the
    "Lethal" and the "destructor".




    5th picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.I think it is rifled
    barrels.....Nice beautiful old gun.Ed


  10. #30
    Plinker

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    I think we found good overall sabot design that will
    be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
    and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
    It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
    but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
    for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
    using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
    which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
    of slower powder, better velocity with less case
    expansion, and more reloads possible.

    We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
    for penetration until now.. They did very well,
    two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
    timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
    Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
    for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
    Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
    nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
    that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
    Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
    and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
    way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
    we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
    bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
    leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
    compared to short fullbore ones....


    Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
    58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
    on.There are many makers and brands and styles
    of molds and weights available.






    Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
    lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
    I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
    bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
    The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
    like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
    diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.




    Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
    Great looking gun..Ed



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