9mm Kaboom Closeups

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • jdhaines

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Feb 24, 2009
    1,550
    38
    Toledo, OH
    I had a friend bring me three 9mm casings into work the other day. I thought I would take a look at them and report here since this may be interesting to some of you. The "story" is as follows. The names have been changed to protect the innocent (:D).

    A guy who my friend knows was shooting at a match a recent weekend. He was shooting a Sig P225 which was in apparently good condition. He was shooting some ammo which was reloaded by an unknown person, purchased about 15-20 years ago, and had been stored in a safe since then. During one string of fire, there was an extra large "bang" and firing was stopped. Upon inspection they found a case with a large blowout on one side. The gun was cleaned, inspected, etc and brought back the following weekend. With the same ammo, he was shooting again and heard another one. He realized, again, that the ammo casing had blown out the side and firing was stopped again. He discontinued the use of that ammo and was going to dispose of it. My friend was trying to get a sample so we could pull it down and at least weigh the amount of powder, although we might not have known what type of powder it was. The ammo was already gone at that point.

    Evidence

    Figure 1 is a photograph of three casings recovered from the ammo lot. All cases were marked "WCC 9mm LUGER".

    Figure 1
    9mm1.jpg


    The cases looked relatively clean and shiny on the outside. The main issue with them is the gaping hole on the side of 2 out of 3 down near the rim. On both cases, we can see a small crease of metal which indicated what part of the case was near the feed ramp. The most significant damage appears to be just off to the side (right side of the gun) from the deepest feed ramp crease. Extraction may have played a hand in this feature. Figures 2 & 3 show a single case rotated slightly between the images. Notice the blowout as well as the curved feed ramp indication. Figures 4 & 5 show similar images of the second case that experienced over-pressure to failure.

    Figure 2
    9mm2.jpg


    Figure 3
    9mm3.jpg


    Figure 4
    9mm4.jpg


    Figure 5
    9mm5.jpg


    The casing which was not blown out and was simply picked up from the ground after being fired was found to have a slight bulge. The figure below (#6) shows this bulge, although you have to look closely.

    Figure 6
    9mm6.jpg


    It seemed relevant to point out that the primers had not been flattened. In fact, if you didn't know better you would say this is a really normal once fired 9mm casing by the evidence found on the case head. It looks perfectly normal.

    Figure 7
    9mm7.jpg


    There was a feature inside of the case near the floor with the flash hole around the outer edge which appeared to be a bit anomalous. Figure 8 below shows this feature on a blown out case, while Figure 9 below shows this feature on a brand new WWB unfired case. It appears this is simply a manufacturing artifact and is of no importance.

    Figure 8
    9mm8.jpg


    Figure 9
    9mm9.jpg


    Finally, Figure 10 is a cross section image showing exactly how the case was blown out. I included a sectioned case which was brand new and unfired (WWB) for comparison. Notice that the blowout occurred through the thickest section of brass. Normally, overload fractures like these (overload meaning too much load and that the fracture happened all at once instead of fatiguing over time) find the path of least resistance. The fact that it went through the largest amount of material suggests the pressure was extremely high and that it was likely unsupported by the chamber in that location. In addition to this, the fracture surface of the material (visible back in Figure 3 appears woody in texture which is common on overload fractures in softer materials like low allow steels and brasses.)

    I found no evidence of corrosion. Many types of corrosion can attack, weaken, and embrittle brass. The most common of these is dezincification which makes the brass weak and structurally unsound. I didn't see any evidence of this in close-up visual examination and in a metallographic cross section. One thing I haven't done, but would like to is scan this on a scanning electron microscope to see how much zinc is in the brass. I would have done this but the SEM is constantly busy these last few days. If it slows down I'll jump on it and put the results up here. I can't imagine any sort of "wrong material" issues as the places making these cases have very tight quality control.

    Figure 10
    9mm10.jpg


    Discussion

    Looking at the evidence shown above, it looks as if the casing moved out of the chamber prior to blowing out. Since the gun appears to still be in good working order, and the barrel hood did not suffer any damage it doesn't seem possible that the case could have ruptured while still inside the chamber. The extreme pressure must have forced the case out of the chamber and the gun out of battery slightly to "unsupport" the case enough to allow for the blowout. The only other explanation I can think of is that the gun fired out of battery. Since the Sig P225 is a modern, reliable pistol that seems very unlikely. If anyone has other thoughts or discussion on this topic, please feel free to post below. This conclusion is just from us BSing back and forth on possibilities. The supposed root cause is too much powder in the case, but we can't verify this.

    He's thrown out the ammo and the danger is gone, but I thought this would be a fun discussion topic. I'll report that the shooter suffered no real damage other than a little burn on his hand and the gun appears to be perfectly functional even after "kabooming" twice.
     

    shibumiseeker

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    49   0   0
    Nov 11, 2009
    10,731
    113
    near Bedford on a whole lot of land.
    Ever since having a kaboom many years ago I have an interest in the topic and have had opportunity to analyze several instances. In my thread on tracking down an overpressure issue in my Delta Elite:

    https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/ammunition_and_reloading/175965-1911_guys_riddle_me_this_brass_issue.html

    I found bullet setback to be an issue leading to the overpressure event in that case. There can be others though, a hot load with a weaker recoil spring can cause the gun to unlock while pressure is still high. In the end I was able to solve the 10mm issue by chronying the rounds.

    In the event that cause my kaboom years ago I still have several hundred rounds of .45acp ammo that I am slowly pulling down to evaluate the charge in them and thus far have not found any overcharged.

    A lot of hypothesis abound, but I've found VERY little repeatable evidence to support most of those speculations. Ask anyone who tells you that it is definitely X to produce the data which shows it and they never can. For good reason few of us want to blow up a gun just to test a hypothesis.

    For what it's worth, primer flattening is NOT a reliable diagnostic because it can give false negatives. Flattened primers ARE a good sign of overpressure, but lack of flattening does not mean overpressure does not exist.
     

    Westside

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Mar 26, 2009
    35,294
    48
    Monitor World
    nice write up and great photos.

    My first question and you answered it was. Are these Reloads, YES.

    Without being able to see the rest of that lot of reloaded ammo there are a lot of variables that can not be accounted for. Including but not limited too.

    1)wrong overall length. (too long/short)
    2) being 9mm is the bullet crimped into the shell properly?
    3)double charged case.
    4) how many times has the brass been reloaded.

    But again excellent write up.
     

    mssmith44

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 21, 2011
    260
    18
    Since we are throwing around theories, I have one to toss on the pile.
    The ammo had been sitting around for years. How about a corrosion welding
    of the bullet to the case? close examination of the mouth of the case might
    show a problem.
     

    jdhaines

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Feb 24, 2009
    1,550
    38
    Toledo, OH
    Since we are throwing around theories, I have one to toss on the pile.
    The ammo had been sitting around for years. How about a corrosion welding
    of the bullet to the case? close examination of the mouth of the case might
    show a problem.

    Pretty neat idea. I just looked at the inside rims with a microscope and don't see any signs of metal smearing, copper pullout, or corrosion products. Not saying it couldn't be, but it doesn't seem like it at this point. If we could get a cartridge, we could check the bullet as that would show the signs better. I think they've all been trashed unfortunately.
     

    opus1776

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    10   0   0
    Apr 28, 2008
    900
    28
    We can start a new forum CSI:INGO :abused:


    All kidding aside, I am intrigued by the post-mortem analysis...:)

    ======================================
    "Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" K. Moss

    You can NEVER be too rich or too thin.

    Life is not a journey, but a series of unplanned detours...

    Perfection: is not a goal---it's a demanded expectation.
     

    Jeremiah

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    14   0   0
    Aug 26, 2008
    1,772
    36
    Avilla, IN
    figure five makes me think there was some poor ( or excessive) feed ramp polishing, it looks like the expanded region is starting at a clear line as if it expanded into an unsupported chamber.
     

    XtremeVel

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Feb 2, 2010
    2,380
    48
    Fort Wayne
    The only other explanation I can think of is that the gun fired out of battery. Since the Sig P225 is a modern, reliable pistol that seems very unlikely. .

    The fact it happened in a modern, well made pistol doesn't make it exempt from that possibility... Considering these were reloads, it could possibly been due to the ammo and no fault to the pistol... OAL too long, not properly sized, bulged case are a few things that would come to mind...

    Thanks for the great report... Much more enjoyable to speculate on possible cause when no one was hurt and firearm survived...
     

    jdhaines

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Feb 24, 2009
    1,550
    38
    Toledo, OH
    Updates

    Story Update:

    These rounds were purchased in 1992 from a friend of a friend's son or something along those lines. Apparently he saved a few before throwing the rest out. I was able to get my hands on a few and snapped some pictures. These were really a mess. These are four random cartridges that were in the box of loaded rounds.

    4 sample cartridges info:
    #1)
    • Head Stamp: FME 82 9
    • Very high primer (was higher than in the picture, halfway out ish but it moved back in while bouncing around in the bag)
    • 115gr FMJ with flat base
    • 5.5gr powder (Unique? See Picture)
    • 1.094 COAL (!!!)
    9mm11.jpg


    #2)
    • Head Stamp: WCC
    • Fully seated primer
    • Very deep crimp ring around the bullet...had a hell of a time getting the bullet out with an inertia hammer. Just about switched to a collet puller but it finally started moving.
    • 115gr FMJ with cavity base
    • 4.6gr powder (Accurate #2? See Picture)
    • 1.130 COAL
    9mm12.jpg


    #3)
    • Head Stamp: R-P
    • Normal Primer
    • 115gr FMJ with cavity base
    • 5.5gr powder (Unique? See Picture)
    • 1.120 COAL
    9mm13.jpg


    #4)
    • Head Stamp: FC
    • Normal Primer
    • 124gr Lead Round Nose
    • Unique? See Picture
    • 1.150 COAL
    9mm14.jpg



    As you can see, these things are a mess. Some lead, some FMJ. Mixed brass (which is fine), different bullets in the same load, different powders, COALs all over the place including some that were very short. It's no wonder a couple popped. I'm guessing now that this was simply a case of bad reloading and finding a couple where the tolerances stacked up against you. Glad he didn't get hurt, and glad these were trashed before more people got ahold of them. If you buy reloads, at least learn enough about reloading to know what to visually look for regarding issues. High primers, bullet heights all over the place, different bullets, etc are all visual cues that should have been throwing alarm bells immediately.
     

    BE Mike

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    18   0   0
    Jul 23, 2008
    7,548
    113
    New Albany
    I thought I might resurrect this thread, as last week I had a round fire out of battery with my Sig P320 Compact in 9mm. The case ruptured in the extreme at the rear. The extractor was blown out. After inspecting the pistol, there appeared to be no damage; just the missing extractor. There was no ring in the barrel, so not a stuck bullet. No injuries. I ordered a new extractor and fired around 200 rounds on the next range trip. I never could find the blown extractor. Thanks to Mark at American Shooters in Clarksville, he noticed the extractor when cleaning the range and saved it (he apparently has quite a collection of small parts). When I mentioned what had happened, he presented it to me! Great guys at American Shooters! BTW the old extractor is undamaged as is the rest of the pistol. Yes, this pistol has had the trigger upgrade.
     

    bgcatty

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    24   0   0
    Sep 9, 2011
    3,129
    113
    Carmel
    The person shooting this alleged ammunition broke a cardinal rule of shooting reloaded ammunition : #1 never shoot somebody else’s reloads! And the original shooter using such suspect ammunition should seriously reconsider his own judgment in such matters.
     
    Top Bottom