358 Hoosier Brass Forming

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  • djones

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    I'm reloading a buddies 358 Hoosier. We are currently neck sizing his brass. I'd like to make some more cases from 308 brass. Does any fellow INGOers have a full length sizing die I could borrow/rent to form 100 cases?

    If not, I'm considering shortening one of my 358 win full length dies and then fire form with some light loads to get the sharp shoulder like the Hoosier has compared to the win. Has anyone ever done this before?

    Thanks guys,

    David
     

    6mm Shoot

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    What I did was cut off .2" off the 358 Winchester die. I set the die up in the press .1" off the case holder when it was at the top of its stroke. That sets you up for the 358 Hoosier.

    I have gotten all sorts of crap from guys on here telling me that it will not work. I got the information from the guy that built the round. Holding the die off the press by the .1" gives you the longer body. If you run the case down to the press you will get a case that is .2" shorter in body. The way I am telling you to do it takes .1" out of the body and .1" out of the neck.

    I made 70 rounds doing it this way and they work great. I have had no problems at all. After fire forming I have been neck sizing. I have shot over 100 rounds to this point. Took my first deer with the converted rifle this year.

    Good luck with the round. I think it's a great round. I get an average of 2450 FPS from 36.5 gr of IMR 4198 using 200 gr bullets out of my rifle. If you have any questions about the round PM me. I will be glad to help any way I can.
     
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    kludge

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    As long as you realize that a cut off .358 Win die will work the brass more than necessary, then yes it will work.

    Use a .358 Hoosier die and you won't be fire forming the brass on the first shot.

    If you do it, you will need to adjust the die so that the shoulder/neck junction of the formed brass fits snug in your chamber so that the fire forming occurs properly like a "Ackley Improved" cartridge. Also, after several neck sizings you will need to full length size again, and start the whole process over.
     

    Broom_jm

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    The worst thing, and very important to understand, is that a cut down 358 Win die will resize the BASE of the brass excessively...the part of the case that is most important in containing pressures and the area most likely to fail catastrophically (head-case separation).

    Don't be cheap: Get the right die and your brass will thank you. :)
     

    cedarthicket

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    The .358 Hoosier and the .358 Winchester have the same shoulder angle, 20 degrees. The .358 Hoosier just has the shoulder "pushed back a little" compared to the .358 Winchester. Not sure where the "sharp shoulder" referenced by the OP comes from. Also, the two cartridges share the same point on the shoulder for measuring headspace. The shoulder of the .358 Hoosier is pushed back ROUGHLY 0.13 to 0.14 inches compared to the .358 Winchester. So, if a .358 Winchester FL die is cut off 0.20 inches it could be made to work to form .358 Hoosier brass. However, one could not screw the 0.20-inches shortened die into the press so that it "kisses" the standard shell holder or you would have WAY TOO MUCH headspace with the formed case. But, you could by trial and error incrementally adjust your shortened FL die down into the press until the formed brass goes into the chamber of your rifle with a little "snugness." Tighten the die-locking ring in that position.

    I would suggest successfully forming TWO pieces of brass, properly trimming and chamfering them, and loading ONE with a light fire-forming load. Fire the round and check to see if the case and primer look normal. If everything looks OK then I would suggest loading the SECOND case with a more moderate load. Fire it and check the resulting fired case and primer for any potential problems. If everything looks OK proceed making more cases with the FL die locked in the proper position. Take appropriate precautions that your modified FL die will not be used incorrectly in your press, or used in another press for which it is not adjusted.

    There should be no need to modify the standard .358 Winchester seating die to seat bullets in .358 Hoosier cases. Of course, the standard die can’t be used to crimp the bullets, but that is not really needed as long as you have good neck tension on the seated bullets.

    I understand there is some concern regarding over working the brass near the base of the case. I have not personally dealt with that situation, having obtained the first set of .358 Hoosier dies from Hornady. And the second poster noted that he just neck sizes after the initial fire-forming. The amount of additional sizing near the base of the case MAY be similar to the difference between standard FL dies and Small Base FL sizing dies. It may or may not be significant. I honestly do not know. That would be an interesting topic to investigate, but I will leave it to someone else.

    Unless you really know what you are doing you would be better off to get a .358 Hoosier die set. It could save you a lot of frustration and worry.
     
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    6mm Shoot

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    kludge can you explain how a shortened 358 Winchester die works the brass more than a 358 Hoosier die? They are the same except that .1" of the rim of the case never gets sized. According to the man that built the round they are the same size. This is how he told me to do it when I talked to him about the round. As far as not fire forming with the 358 Hoosier die you will not have the shoulder pushed out and sharp till the round is fired. Cutting off brass and running it through a die will not make the finished round. It has to be fire formed to push the brass out to meet the chamber. Also how can I be over working the brass when I am only neck sizing after the fire forming stage. Why would I want to take a round that is fire formed to the chamber of my rifle and full length resize it. I wouldn't do that even if I had a 358 Hoosier die. I neck size all my rifle rounds. Just because you don't understand something don't mean it's wrong to do it. By the way all 70 rounds of brass I have made are doing fine so far.
     

    6mm Shoot

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    Broom_jm can you explain to me how you are going to get the case separation when the die never sizes the bottom of the case. You have to hold the die up .1" from the case holder to make the die work. The bottom of the case is never sized. You fire form the case after it has been sized then neck size. No case failure. Why are you trying to scare people? If you reread what you said you will see just how dumb you sound. The part that never gets sized is going to fail. At least come up with something that sounds like it could happen.

    As I have stated before I have dun this to 70 rounds and have not had any problems.
     

    Broom_jm

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    You have "dun" this to 70 rounds, and I'm the one that sounds dumb? :rolleyes:

    Case bodies are tapered. By shortening the standard 358 Win die, you are creating a situation where the dimension at the mouth of the die is smaller in diameter than the base of the cartridge should ever be squeezed down to. What you are doing to your brass, essentially, is small-base sizing it every time you use your shortened die. I'm sorry that you can't seem to grasp the geometry of what's happening here, but do exactly what Cedarthicket suggests and you'll discover that your sized cases are quite different than fire-formed cases. The way you're resizing, by not running the brass all the way up into the die, will only work for so long. Look up "case head expansion". Then go buy a resizing die that actually fits your brass.

    I reload 30 Herrett, 6.5JDJ, 358GNR and form my own 7-30 Waters cases. I've been at this reloading thing for 25+ years have helped lots of folks learn how it's done. Have you done the paper-clip test on your 70 pieces of brass? How many times have they been fired? Are your loads hot enough to exacerbate the problem of excessive resizing during the first firing? How are you going to push the shoulder back sufficiently, when such is indicated?

    Some people are afraid of information and knowledge. Is that why you are confusing my efforts to inform people as trying to scare them? ;)
     

    djones

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    As far as sharp shoulder it is his chamber that has a sharp shoulder. Sorry for the confusion. The new ammo from the guy who re-chambered the gun has a rounded off shoulder like my 358 win.

    I have age included a picture of a new piece of ammo from the rechamber guy and a once fired piece of brass from that guys ammo. The spot where the pen points is 0.005" larger than an unfired case! This seems like a problem to me. I don't know if it due to case bulge (high pressure) or the chamber being larger than the new ammo.



    After all the hoops you 358 Hoosier guys have to jump through it sure makes me happy with my 35 rem and 358 win!

    i guess I will continue to neck size his twice fired ( once as 243 once as 358 Hoosier) brass until it needs full length resized. Then my buddy will need to pony up the cash for a die or buy more of the super hot ammo from rechamber guy.
     

    6mm Shoot

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    Broom_jm I just took a lot of measurements for you on a fired case and a resized case. The 358 Winchester case measures .45 at the base of the neck. The Hoosier case is .456 measured at the same place. That is because the .1" is taken out at the top of the case not the bottom. The case that was fired measures get this, .456. So after firing a sized case it is the same size as a formed case. Now the base of the case where it just goes into the die it measures, .467 and the fired case is .468. That means it blew out the bottom a hole .001". Now that big old .001 is taken up by each side of the case. That equals .0005 on each side. So as I said before I will stick with the information I got from the guy that built the case. You stick with your rant on how wrong I am and I will keep shooting my rifle the same way I have been. As I told you before when we butted heads last time. I have gotten along for years with out your help and I have never blown up a gun or case yet. Stand by this may be the time, not. Oh you are not the only one that is old and I may have a year or ten reloading longer then you. This year I will be 64. You have a great day.
     

    cedarthicket

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    Djones, thanks for posting the excellent picture. That explains very well your reference to the “sharp shoulder” (sorry, I was thinking in terms of sharp shoulder angle). The sharp shoulder of the fired case and the “rounded” shoulder corners of the formed case that has not been fired is typical, and nothing in itself to be concerned about. I get those rounded corners at all the time when I FIRST form cases. However, when I fire and reload them, even FL resizing them in my Hoosier die, the sharper corners remain.

    The spot where the pen is pointed on the fired case being somewhat larger in diameter than an unfired case is to be expected. However, whether .005 inches larger is within a “normal” range for a modern center-fire rifle cartridge I do not know. I do know that when I designed the Hoosier cartridge the diameter of the base portion of the chambering reamer is very close to the MINIMUM SAAMI specifications for the .358 Winchester chamber in the same area ahead of the bolt face.

    It would be interesting to see how much “bulge” is present just forward of the solid base web of several typical center-fire rifle cartridges fired in standard sporting and military chambers. Again, as noted in my post above, I will leave that to someone else.
     

    6mm Shoot

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    djones what you are pointing at is the chamber of the rifle pushing out the brass to meet the chamber. If it stays the same to the rim it is fine or if it gets a little bigger it is fine. If it is smaller past that point there is a problem and needs to go back to the guy that chambered it. At that point it should measure some where around .47 Mine measures .468.
     
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    Broom_jm

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    Djones, thanks for posting the excellent picture. That explains very well your reference to the “sharp shoulder” (sorry, I was thinking in terms of sharp shoulder angle). The sharp shoulder of the fired case and the “rounded” shoulder corners of the formed case that has not been fired is typical, and nothing in itself to be concerned about. I get those rounded corners at all the time when I FIRST form cases. However, when I fire and reload them, even FL resizing them in my Hoosier die, the sharper corners remain.

    The spot where the pen is pointed on the fired case being somewhat larger in diameter than an unfired case is to be expected. However, whether .005 inches larger is within a “normal” range for a modern center-fire rifle cartridge I do not know. I do know that when I designed the Hoosier cartridge the diameter of the base portion of the chambering reamer is very close to the MINIMUM SAAMI specifications for the .358 Winchester chamber in the same area ahead of the bolt face.

    It would be interesting to see how much “bulge” is present just forward of the solid base web of several typical center-fire rifle cartridges fired in standard sporting and military chambers. Again, as noted in my post above, I will leave that to someone else.

    Case head expansion (safe, anyway) is typically measured in ten-thousandths...not thousandths. If a case head expand .005" from the size it went into a chamber, that is a recipe for VERY short case life! For the guys who aren't aware, a micrometer is typically used to measure CHE...not a dial caliper.

    Again, this is a fairly simple question of geometry. To be honest, I'm a little puzzled that experienced reloaders would have any difficulty grasping the concept. A reloading die for a typical bottle-necked case is not a straight-walled cylinder, it is a graduated cylinder. For a tapered case like the 358 (and just about all bottle-necked cases), cutting off "x" amount from the bottom results in a totally new cartridge geometry...not just a shortened version of the original. Some guys like to think that trimming .200" from the bottom of a resizing die is just like trimming .200" from the neck of a given cartridge, but that is simply not the case.

    For the guys who "get it", I'm explaining the obvious. For those who don't...well, some folks simply can't be taught, I suppose.
     

    cedarthicket

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    Case head expansion (safe, anyway) is typically measured in ten-thousandths...not thousandths. If a case head expand .005" from the size it went into a chamber, that is a recipe for VERY short case life! For the guys who aren't aware, a micrometer is typically used to measure CHE...not a dial caliper.

    Again, this is a fairly simple question of geometry. To be honest, I'm a little puzzled that experienced reloaders would have any difficulty grasping the concept. A reloading die for a typical bottle-necked case is not a straight-walled cylinder, it is a graduated cylinder. For a tapered case like the 358 (and just about all bottle-necked cases), cutting off "x" amount from the bottom results in a totally new cartridge geometry...not just a shortened version of the original. Some guys like to think that trimming .200" from the bottom of a resizing die is just like trimming .200" from the neck of a given cartridge, but that is simply not the case.

    For the guys who "get it", I'm explaining the obvious. For those who don't...well, some folks simply can't be taught, I suppose.

    Broom_jm, what you say regarding case head expansion (CHE) is correct. However, there appears to be a need to define terms so that we are all “on the same page.” It is my understanding that (as illustrated in djones’ picture) case head is that portion of the bottom of the case that encompasses up to the top of the relatively solid case web. In the fired case shown that would be the original-colored brass just below the pen point. The lighter-colored brass above the pen point is the part of the case body immediately above the case head, and it is that part (not the case head) that djones noted to have expanded .005 inches as compared to an unfired case.

    My interpretation of the explanation by 6mm Shoot is that his shortened FL die probably does not touch the fired case in the case web area. For one thing, there is the amount of the case head below the top of the shell holder when he is sizing his brass. Secondly, there is some additional part of the case head above the top of his shell holder when the ram is at the top of its stroke. (I believe he said that the base of his shortened die is about 0.1 inches above the shell holder.) I am assuming the shell holder itself is unmodified. So, it would appear that any case sizing that he is doing at the bottom of his shortened FL die is on the body portion of the case -- above the case head. And, that seems to work fine for him with a case that has some body taper (tapered cylinder), but not nearly as much taper as some.

    As a side note, I know one reloader (and machinist) who has worked for a few years with a .358 wildcat having a case length of 1.625 inches. He also shortened a .358 Winchester FL sizing die to form his cases from .308 Win, 30-06 Spg, .270 Win, etc. Because he had to cut off so much of the original FL die he did “grind/ream” out a little inside the bottom of his shortened die in order to better accommodate the case heads of the original brass. Of course, he also had to do a lot of outside neck turning. But, the modified die and formed cases have worked well for him.
     

    Broom_jm

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    As a side note, I know one reloader (and machinist) who has worked for a few years with a .358 wildcat having a case length of 1.625 inches. He also shortened a .358 Winchester FL sizing die to form his cases from .308 Win, 30-06 Spg, .270 Win, etc. Because he had to cut off so much of the original FL die he did “grind/ream” out a little inside the bottom of his shortened die in order to better accommodate the case heads of the original brass. Of course, he also had to do a lot of outside neck turning. But, the modified die and formed cases have worked well for him.

    This is an illustration of what I was explaining earlier. There are different ways to get there, including setting a barrel back and having a custom made reamer for the end-product created when shortening a resizing die. Or, you can "fudge" on the resizing process, but that only works for so long. The dimensions involved should be pretty tight, between the chamber and the resizing die. 6mm Shoot shortened his 358 Win die and reported CHE in the .005" range. That is WAY more than you really want, but it's to be expected, based on how he's going about the process.

    When it comes to guns and reloading, I am predisposed to do things RIGHT! If others are OK with cutting corners, it's really no skin off my nose. I'm just making sure that others understand the ramifications.
     

    rjhans53

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    What you all are talking about is a tad different but my 35 short is made from a cut off 358 die. Yes I squeeze and resize the bottom of the case, 1 time. Then because my whole set up is made from a 358 die and a 358 reamer the chamber is right for the round. I have NEVER had a problem with case separation, and get 10 shots out of a piece of brass before I put it in the scrap bucket. yes I have a feeler that I have been known to use. As far as the case blowing out a little on both sides, I've made 6.5 x 55 from 270 and 06 brass and if it's annealed your get 8 shots out of a piece of brass before the necks start to crack but the base has never given me a problem.
     

    6mm Shoot

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    Broom_jm you need to go back and reread what I said. I said that I got .001 from where I measured differences in a fired case and a sized case at the base of where the die stopped. That being the space between the end of the die and the case holder.

    The guy that made the first post asked why he was getting .005 bulge in his fired case. His brass was sized by the gunsmith that did the chamber. My understanding was that it was dun with a Hoosier die. That had nothing to do with what I was doing.

    Broom_jm I don't know if you really believe what you are saying or you are just trying to bully people into doing things the way you think they should be dun.
     
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    NKBJ

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    This thread is what Grampa called muckledy dun. And it reminds me a whole lot of what anybody that crafts reloads for non-standard cartridges figures out purty dang quick.
     
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