Any hardcore long range reloaders?

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  • ChristianPatriot

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    Feb 11, 2013
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    My long range rig is nearly complete so now it's time for load development. It's a Remington 700 SS 5R Milspec. 24" with 1:11.25 twist sitting in an XLR Element Chassis. I'm gonna concentrate on the 175 SMK as my primary projectile. What are the tricks of the trade? I'm coming to understand that it's all about consistency. I plan on doing some optimum charge weight testing. Does the higher end brass give you a sizable advantage over milsurp stuff? My plans are to use LC brass, CCI BR2 Primers, 42-45 grains of Varget, and 175gr SMKs. My ultimate goal is to be able to make sub-moa groups/first round hits anowhere from 600-1,000yds. I'll take any and all advice. I'm very new to long range. This is my first bolt gun and I've never shot passed 100yds. Thanks in advance. :ingo:
     

    RSW

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    Amazing rifle. I love it! You're on the right track for sure. It's all about consistency. I weigh every charge and do it all on a single stage press. Never found a place to go out to 1000 but I know for sure what you have will take you out to 500 yds.

    Other things to think over:
    Read up about setting your bullet overall length. It too has a part as well.
    Neck size after fire forming the brass
    uniform your flash holes
    i don't use military brass so others will have to chime in but I like Lapua and Winchester
    trim brass to consistent overall length
    single load every round in that rifle. Don't use the built in magizine. It's a pain when setting longer OAL and it Mars it bullets

    if you shoot it before you get the new stock I'd pull the stock and sand down the high spots after your first range trip. Also think about buying a few boxes of federal gold medal match 175 SMKs. They are the gold standard and a good starting point. Once you know what they can do start working on doing better with varget.

    That rifle and SMKs also like blc2 , IMR 4064, IMR 8208. VARGET is just a speck better.
     

    oldpink

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    Definitely agree about finding optimal bullet seating depth.
    Hornady and Stoney Point make a nice gauge to help with that process.
    Definitely make yourself a dummy round set to that COAL once you find it for future use to greatly expedite setting your seating die.
    Something else to consider is an outside neck turning tool, although I've never used one, but lots of target shooters do.
    It's a general rule of thumb that the powders that do best are those that come closest to filling the case fully, although there are exceptions to that one.
    My personal favorite for my .30-06 is IMR 4831.
     

    Broom_jm

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    Starting with a quality rifle like the one you have built is a big step in the right direction. When it comes to handloading, consistency is definitely the key, and that starts with case preparation. There are a lot of different thoughts and theories and processes for how to go about that. I take a batch of cases and sort by weight. Any cases that do not fall within a couple grains of the average get set aside and used for less serious shooting. After that, all cases get trimmed to minimum length, chamfered and deburred. I use a Lee cutter system, with the case chucked up in a cordless drill. This allow me the opportunity to quickly polish each case with a little steel wool and also lets me identify cases that are badly out of round. Primer pockets and flash holes get uniformed. All charge weights are dropped and trickled up during load development. Using the OCW method, I am usually able to find a charge weight that is not sensitive to being off a tenth or two, either direction.

    Since you've never shot past 100 yards, there are likely to be shooting techniques you are going to need to work on. That's an entirely different topic, but one you should look into.
     

    baba

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    is that a 308? If so be careful. I have one loading maual that lists `43 gr of varget at a max load for that bullet. You may want to double check. I just startd loading this buler in 308. I think I started at 38gr. Haven't tried any yet though. Work's been nuts.

    -Brian
     

    RMC

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    Don't be set on using one powder. I loaded my 22-250 with Varget and hated it. My 5 shot groups with IMR 4895 at 100 yds could easily be covered with a dime but I couldn't get Varget to shoot anywhere close to that. The same applied to my 308 Browning. Another thing to keep in mind for long range is your success will be based on 90% equipment and 10% shooting ability. A good scope is priceless. I use a Leopold 8 x 25 with a target dot. I can reach out 400+ yds and get personal with a prairie dog because neither the dot or the crosshairs cover the target. A crisp trigger will also tighten your groups more than most people realize. I adjusted the trigger on my Rem 700 myself and couldn't ask for anything better. When you go to the range take a good bench rest with you and some shot bags. Try to remove as much of the human factor as you can so you know how consistent your gun and your loads are.
     

    ChristianPatriot

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    How do you know which piece of the puzzle to tweak if it's not grouping well? Obviously taking human error out of the equation as much as possible, do you just try a hundred different combinations: different brass, primer, powder, powder weight, COAL...there's gotta be a thousand different ways to load up a .308 right?
     

    baba

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    I am not a hardcore long range reloader, but the reloading game is all about consistency. A given bullet will reach its max performance in your barrel at a given velocity (which comes down to stabilization). So you'll look for powders that provide the most consistent velocity shot to shot. Shoot them across a chrono and see what does best. A lot of guys will ream the flash hole to a consistent diameter so every piece of brass is the same, then use the same primers all the time to take that out of the equation. As you are testing powder for consistency, you can also check it for performance with your bullet. Load different charges behind the same bullet, and see where you group out the best. While you are doing this you are looking at the velocity spread shot to shot at each powder charge.

    You can check different powders for more or less consistency. Some powders will allow more or less velocity with a given pressure, so you may be able to push one more than the other. For instance if your bullets seem to group closer as they go faster, but your first powder is exhibiting signs of pressure, then you'll need to switch to a slower powder to get more velocity and see if that further improves your group.

    You can also test different bullets in the same way to find the one that reaches the highest potential in your rifle.

    So yes, lots of trial and error.

    One way to cut some of this short is to buy some factory match ammo and see what your rifle likes best. You can get Federal GMM with the 175gr smk, or 168gr smk. If your rifle really likes those, then you can try and duplicate the velocity/pressure profile and see. Unfortunately, not every bullet is available in a factory load though.

    Its tedious, but I like reloading and I like shooting, so it is all good. I have just bedded my Savage 10FP, and think I may put a new scope on it. So I am loading up some 175gr SMKs to try out too.

    -Brian
     

    17 squirrel

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    The first Trick of the Trade is to punt the SMK and use a good bullet instead. The 155 Scenar leads the lack, literally.

    Where did you hear that SMK suck ? Have any data that the 155 Scenar palma bullet does better. ?????

    Here's a little from last years National Matches at Perry.
    Oh look .... Tubbs won the Palma Match with a SMK..


    NRA High Power Rifle Championships at Camp Perry

    Again, Sierra displayed our domination at the National Championships as 35 of the 37 major match winners were using Sierra Bullets. Here is a listing of the match winners using Sierra and the matches they won.

    Match - Match Winner
    Appreciation Cup Match - Christopher Wyatt
    Army Cup Match - Mitchell Maxberry
    Calvary Cup Match - Curt Leister
    Canadian Cup Match - David Tubb
    Centenary Trophy Aggregate - Sheri Gallagher
    Coast Artillery Trophy Match - Jerome Bostick
    Coast Guard Trophy Match - Dennis Demille
    Crescent Cup Match - Alexander Arrieta
    Crowell Trophy Match - Sheri Gallagher
    Edward D. Andrus Memorial Trophy Match - Kent Reeve
    Enlisted Men's Trophy Team Match - USAMU Praslick
    Erdman Trophy Match - Norman Houle
    Farr Trophy Match - Grant Singley
    Herb "Doc" Aitken Memorial Trophy Match - Kent Reeve
    Herrick Trophy Team Match - Tompkins-Gallagher Family
    Leech Cup Match - David Tubb
    Long Range 600 Yard Match #1 - David Tubb
    Long Range 600 Yard Match #3 - David Tubb
    Marine Corps Cup Match - Paul Rademaker
    Marine Gunner D.I. Boyd Trophy - Norman Houle
    McCann Trophy Match - David Tubb
    Members Trophy Match - Norman Houle
    National NRA Match Rifle Championship - Norman Houle
    National Service Rifle Championship - James Fox
    Navy Cup Match - Karyn Manges
    Nevada Trophy Match - David Tubb
    NRA National High Power Rifle Champion - Norman Houle
    Optical Sight Championship - George Tubb
    Palma Individual Trophy Match - David Tubb
    Porter Trophy Match - Karyn Manges
    RNDC Trophy Team Match - Team Creedmore
    Rumbold Trophy Team Match - Colorado Blue Sky
    Sierra Bullets Trophy Award - Kent Reeve
    The Roumanian Trophy Team Match - Tompkins-Gallagher Family
    Tompkins Trophy Match - David Tubb
    Vandenberg Cup Match - Norman Houle
    Wimbledon Cup Match - Michelle Gallagher
     
    Last edited:

    sloughfoot

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    I like Winchester brass, IMR 4064, and 175 SMK at 2600 fps. Hornady makes a great bullet too.

    I have a list at home of what the top 20 used for ammo at 1,000 yards. I enjoy reading about what others have done.

    It proves there is not ONE load or bullet used by everybody for long range.
     

    oldpink

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    I needn't have anyone explain it to me, I've shot more than a few of both.

    Shocked that your 'knowledge' is derived from a list of what other people have done. Didn't see that one coming.

    Any experienced reloader will tell you that your "absolute" knowledge about what bullet will perform best in all rifles is not borne out by practical realities.
    Maybe Scenar really does perform in your gun(s), but that doesn't mean someone else with a different rifle will do as well, but may instead do better with a Berger, SMK, or even a Speer Mag Tip.
    It's not uncommon for two of the same make and model rifle to each prefer completely different bullets, too.
    Your odds of doing your best improve with premium bullets, but how do you explain my (admittedly very limited, but still...) own experience with over a dozen bullets that included the 168 grain Sierra Matchking resulted in only two bullets making it under the MOA threshold: 165 grain Barnes X-bullet and 180 grain Sierra Pro-Hunter spitzer.
    No, this is no target rifle (off the shelf Ruger M-77 .30-06), but the hunting bullets beat the target bullet easily.
     

    Broom_jm

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    I needn't have anyone explain it to me, I've shot more than a few of both.

    Shocked that your 'knowledge' is derived from a list of what other people have done. Didn't see that one coming.

    You DO realize your considerable "knowledge" would carry more weight if it wasn't completely tainted by an absurd amount of condescension?

    SMK bullets have a reputation far greater than yours, although both definitely speak for themselves...the SMK's win matches and your reputation as an *** is unchallenged.

    FWIW, I like the 155gr A-Max bullets out of a 308, but only for 600 yards and in. For longer shots, the 175gr SMK's are an excellent choice.
     

    RMC

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    How do you know which piece of the puzzle to tweak if it's not grouping well? Obviously taking human error out of the equation as much as possible, do you just try a hundred different combinations: different brass, primer, powder, powder weight, COAL...there's gotta be a thousand different ways to load up a .308 right?

    With my Rem 700 in 22-250, the first thing I checked was to see if the barrel was floated correctly and it was. Then I took the trigger out and adjusted it to be lighter and crisp. I bought some factory loads and went to the range. I couldn't get my groups under 1 MOA and I was using a benchrest. This was unacceptable for fluted ss heavy barrel varmint rifle. The next thing I did was order new brass so the difference between cases would be minimal, and at the same time I bought Nosler ballistic tips in 50 gr because I prefer boattail projectiles. My Nosler manual showed 4895 as the most accurate powder in their loads and the speed was towards the upper end at 3800 fps. I loaded 5 rnds at 1 gr under max load, and increased the load by .2 grains, then again, and again, until I was at max load, then back to the range I went. The groups started just under 1 MOA with the lightest load and decreased as the powder increased to where the max load was grouping under 3/8 of an inch.

    From there I tried different powders and did about the same routine. I'm not sure how many powders I tried but I always came back to IMR 4895. Hodgon 4895 was close but the IMR was more consistent. Howver, that can easily change from one batch to another. Shortly after I decided on my pet load I started reading up on moly-coated bullets and liked what I read so I bought some. The result was I started shooting over 1 MOA again but I noticed that the group was tightening up with each shot. I found that my gun needed 10-20 rounds through it after cleaning before it would settle in. I also had to increase my load .4 grs which was common when using moly.

    When all was said and done I ended up moly coating my own bullets in my tumbler and changed from Nosler Ballistic Tip to Hornady V-Max. My 3-rnd groups at 100 yds left one hole in the paper and a coyote within 600 yds was not safe.

    At one point I noticed my grouping wasn't quite as tight so I started a close inspection of everything on the rifle. What I noticed was just a tad bit of creep in the trigger due to one of the adjustment screws backing out a little. I redid the trigger but this time I put fingernail polish on the screws and haven't had a problem since.

    You'll find every gun is different, every powder reacts differently in your gun as will every type of bullet. Take your time, pay attention to even the smallest details, be safe, and enjoy.
     

    Woobie

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    When I first started on my 308, I came across the same info online that you're posting. Here's a few things I've learned since then:

    Varget does ok, but re-15 does better. Imr xbr 8208 does even better. I may settle on that, but I'm testing IMR 4064 right now. Most importantly for you, none of what I just said means much for your rifle. There a lot of great powders out there. Btw, that is over max on the Varget, so build up to it and watch for pressure signs.

    175 smk's do well, but 178 a-max do better for me. I'm testing the new 168 sierra tmk's, once I get to the range we'll see how they do. If you want to shoot out to 1000, you need to stay supersonic. That requires a high bc bullet. Most higher bc projectiles are heavier (yes, there are exceptions), and the 308 doesn't have the muscle to push some of them. Most people don't go over 180 gn bullets. Bc and muzzle velocity are usually a trade off. Berger makes some really fine bullets that I haven't tried yet. I'm hoping the tmk works, as it is lighter, and has a significantly higher bc than the heavier amax or smk. Only way to know is to test for yourself, and run it through a good ballistic program (applied ballistics is the best) to see if you're still supersonic. G7 drag model is more reliable when looking at bc's as well.

    A lot of what you can control has to do with the case. I uniform primer pockets, deburr flash holes, fire form, neck size, trim to length, chamfer and deburr case mouth, very lightly neck turn and weight sort. In that order. I had very bad luck with winchester brass, and won't use it again. Ymmv. It had double punched flash holes and primer pockets that were way over or way under size. LC is actually decent brass once you put your work into it, and a lot of guys use it. I never have, but I wouldn't be opposed to doing so. Lapua is the gold standard in every category. Better case life, weight consistency, neck concentricity, and they drill instead of punch the flash holes, which means you don't have to deburr them.

    Play with your seating depth. You may not be able to seat close to the lands with that remington chamber. I can't, and it bugs me. I do use a magazine, but I don't care if my brass is marred. Check the run out of your loaded rounds too. It shouldn't be more than .0015 from center / .003 total deviation.

    This sounds like a lot, but to me it's a blast. I have almost as much fun in the reloading room as I do on the range. Everything I've said about bullets and powder is my experience. Yours will be a lot different than anyone else's. That is actually a great thing. When you've arrived at your pet load, it will be something you crafted, and you'll be proud of it. Enjoy the journey, and congrats on that sweet rifle. If you haven't done so already, get with A&A and get some glass worthy to sit on top of it.
     

    Yeah

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    Any experienced reloader will tell you that your "absolute" knowledge about what bullet will perform best in all rifles is not borne out by practical realities.

    I have put a round or two through a press and maybe seen a smattering of rifle actions, barrels of varying length and profiles and materials, groove counts and shapes. Even various chambering philosophies. I don't find these special snowflakes that conventional wisdom assures me are everywhere.
     

    Yeah

    Master
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    You DO realize your considerable "knowledge" would carry more weight if it wasn't completely tainted by an absurd amount of condescension?

    I do realize that many people I come across don't actually want answers, but rather affirmation that the choices they've made were the right ones.
     
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