308 reloading help...stumped

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  • baba

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    I just made a batch of reloads for my 308. This was using 1x fired winchester brass (fired previously as factory ammo in this rifle), and I also tried some military brass. The main issue I had is that the rounds were a bit stiff to chamber. There was more resistance to the bolt handle than there is on factory loads, which I also had some of at the range. The resistance occurs when the bolt is all the way forward, and you start to turn it down to lock the action. I am loading 175gr SMKs, and had some Federal GMM 175s with me to compare. The military brass would not chamber. I could not get the bolt handle to turn hardly at all, and almost got a round stuck in the chamber. The GMMs went right in with no resistance.

    My trim to length is 2.005, which matches what the GMMs are. Both use the 175gr SMK bullet. The GMMs are actually loaded .015" longer than mine. I also tried pulling the bullet on some of my reloads to check if it was the bullet, but the empty unfired brass gives the same resistance. So it must be something with the brass.

    The brass were all full length resized in a Hornaday die. I also ran a few through an RCBS neck size only die. Both had the same problem with being slightly hard to chamber. The dies were set up by raising the ram all the way, screwing the die down until it touched, backing the ram off and giving the die an extra 1/8th turn.

    My neck diameter matches that of the GMMs. The base diameter matches as well (except obviously for the neck-sized only rounds. The hard to chamber rounds, as well as the impossible to chamber military brass rounds, both chamber with no issues in my M1A. I suppose that is good, meaning my savage bolt gun has a tighter chamber than the M1A.

    I've measured everything I can measure, and can't seem to find a difference, or anything out of spec. What the heck is causing this? The chamber itself must be clear since the factory loads chamber fine. HELP! I'm tearing my hair out over here.

    -Brian
     

    Leo

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    Sounds like you set up your full length sizer ok. But it also sounds like your brass is too long at the shoulder.

    Can you measure the shoulder to base length? Of you don't have a stoney point set, turn a .38spl piece of brass upside down over the neck and hold it against the rifle case shoulder. Measure it and write it down. Do the same with a new factory round that loads easily. See if your reloads are longer at the shoulder. Sometimes changing around shell holders makes a difference in sizing final results.

    Redding makes a "competition" shell holder set. It is a set of shell holders that are milled to different thicknesses, This allows you to "adjust your die". I have also carefully ground a few .001" off the bottom of a die to get a shorter shoulder height.
     
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    Sirshredalot

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    I had a few do that to when loading the 175gr smk for -06.

    Never had any pressure signs and the bullet never touched the lands....but!

    Are you saying that factory rounds plunk in just fine and the brass that you size won't chamber?
    Will your once fired brass from that gun chamber ok Before sizing?


    God bless
    -shred
     
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    17 squirrel

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    Have you done a megga barrel and Chamber scrubing ?
    When sizing you're brass is the sizer die contacting the shell holder and caming over a little when at the top of the ram stroke ? I read that you are set up camng over.. Are you sure it is ?,

    In a lot of cases when loading mil brass for the first time, using a small base sizing die will bring the brass back to the bottom of sammi specs. And with doing that it will chamber much easier.
    You also can take a black sharpie and color the bullet, neck and shoulder of the case and slowly try to change it and then look at the case and see what is stopping the round from chambering.

    You also need to buy a high quality cartridge chamber gauge.
    get the one that has the side machined open on it.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...jABOBQ&usg=AFQjCNG_08iCKk0gqDUq3JgKUzqAOHNBPw
     
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    topash

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    It is possible that the headspace on your chamber is short. Try sanding a shellholder to remove about .001" of thickness and try resizing a case and see if it changes the fit.
     

    17 squirrel

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    It is possible that the headspace on your chamber is short. Try sanding a shellholder to remove about .001" of thickness and try resizing a case and see if it changes the fit.

    How about if we find out if the sizing die is set correctly before you have him start grinding on a shell holder.
     

    topash

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    OP said his neck and base diameters are correct, leaves headspace issue. Sanding a shellholder is quicker and cheaper than purchasing a Redding competition shell holder set or a high quality chamber gauge.
     

    17 squirrel

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    Well.. Odds are his 308 mil brass was shot out of a hog ( m60 ) a open bolt machine gun and its stretched and with that most likely after resizing the necks are to long or the brass is too long or the outer diameter of the brass body is to big.
    Grinding off some of the shell holder is not going to bring the bottom of the case back within spec nor will it shorten the brass if its too long if that's the problem. If the necks are too long and you grind off a shell holder until the rounds fits, now you have a headspace problem.
    You find out what the problem is and fix the problem.

    When using mil brass that has been shot with a machine gun its easier to size the brass at least the first time using small base dies, and then trim. That's what small base dies are made for. For easier loading in different firearms, semi, full auto, pump and lever action firearms.

    A good case guage instantly puts a end to all the questions.
     
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    Leo

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    Side note, if worse came to worse, you can always just loosen the barrel nut on your Savage and make it a touch longer. I would recommend you get a set of GO-NO GO gauges and a field spec gauge to double check your work. I would not do that until you have gotten your reloads back to new SAAMI spec.
     

    sloughfoot

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    You did not setback your shoulder enough. 1/8 extra is not enough for your press. Screw it down farther until a resized case chambers easily in you boltgun.

    Don't be modifiying anything until you have taken up all the slack in your press. You should consider getting a case gauge, but your rifle chamber makes a better gauge for precise ammo for your rifle.

    Your situation is very common and easily fixed. The fix may not make sense, but try it. I know it works.
     

    ckcollins2003

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    You did not setback your shoulder enough. 1/8 extra is not enough for your press. Screw it down farther until a resized case chambers easily in you boltgun.

    Don't be modifiying anything until you have taken up all the slack in your press. You should consider getting a case gauge, but your rifle chamber makes a better gauge for precise ammo for your rifle.

    Your situation is very common and easily fixed. The fix may not make sense, but try it. I know it works.

    +1. The 1/8th more turn is just a good suggestion to go by, but it doesn't mean that's all it's going to take to push the shoulder back.

    I'd be surprised if this didn't do the trick, but if not, then your OAL is too long or you didn't get the brass all of the way into the full length resizing die.
     

    SSGSAD

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    Well.. Odds are his 308 mil brass was shot out of a hog ( m60 ) a open bolt machine gun and its stretched and with that most likely after resizing the necks are to long or the brass is too long or the outer diameter of the brass body is to big.
    Grinding off some of the shell holder is not going to bring the bottom of the case back within spec nor will it shorten the brass if its too long if that's the problem. If the necks are too long and you grind off a shell holder until the rounds fits, now you have a headspace problem.
    You find out what the problem is and fix the problem.

    When using mil brass that has been shot with a machine gun its easier to size the brass at least the first time using small base dies, and then trim. That's what small base dies are made for. For easier loading in different firearms, semi, full auto, pump and lever action firearms.

    A good case guage instantly puts a end to all the questions.

    I started re loading for a rifle, .308, with M-60 brass.

    Using my RCBS Rockchucker single stage press, and RCBS regular .308 dies.

    Lube, ran em through ONCE, trimmed when needed, and never had an issue.....

    Rifle, was a Rem. 788.....
     

    17 squirrel

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    I started re loading for a rifle, .308, with M-60 brass.

    Using my RCBS Rockchucker single stage press, and RCBS regular .308 dies.

    Lube, ran em through ONCE, trimmed when needed, and never had an issue.....

    Rifle, was a Rem. 788.....

    Okkkk .... Let's make it simple... If your dies are cut on the tight side and you're chamber is on the large side of spec it works fine... That's not always the case. If you have a large chamber and a large sizing die, it ain't gonna work. It you have a small chamber and a large die, it ain't gonna work.
    Some people always get excited when someone mentions small base dies, if people would go and read what small base dies are for and what purpose they serve they would think different of them.
    I use small base dies when loading ball ammo that will be shot in different firearms I own of the same caliber. And with doing that I have NEVER had a issue of not chambering a round in ANY rifle I own no matter if it is a bolt. Lever, pump or autoloader.
    Did you ever take any of your loaded mil brass and try it in any other rifle besides your bolt action ? Somehow I dought it.
     

    baba

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    Thanks guys. I'll try and answer a few of the questions.


    - I resize, then trim. Trim length is in spec at 2.005" on all the cases.
    - The problem is with both military and commercial brass, though way worse with the military brass. Most of the commercial rounds I can close the bolt on with some resistance. Not even close with the military brass.
    - To answer the question on cam-over: I did this - raised the ram all the way. Screwed down the die until it touched. Backed off the ram. Screwed the die down 1/8 of a turn. So yes, I believe it is camming over to the best of my knowledge.
    - I do need a case gauge. Will get one on order.
    - The mil brass that wont chamber in my savage as well as the tight commercial brass that chamber with some challenge all go in my M1A with no problems.
    - The commerical brass was fired in this gun before, but the mil brass was not.

    I will try some of these suggestions and let you know how they go.

    -Brian
     

    Cerberus

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    OP, who made you dies? If you are using military brass it was mostly likely ran thru a M240, and the brass is huge. Size and then trim to 2.005"

    Your dies can be wrong too. I had a set of Hornady's that would not set the shoulder back enough to fit in any .308 I tried, which was 6 different rifles. Mistakes happen with any brand.
     

    baba

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    My full length sizer die is a hornaday, and the neck sizer i just got is an rcbs. Quick question on that....does the neck sizer set the shoulder back?

    I did the trick someone mentioned to check the shoulder length by using a 38spl case. What i found was the easy to chamber brass was about .001-.002 shorter than the hard to chamber brass. The military impossible to chamber brass was about .008 longer. But all these wnt through the same dies!

    Even with the extra 1/8 turn this dimension does not change when run in the die. so maybe i need to reduce the thickness of my shell holder. But why the mil brass still so lomg? The only thing i can think is they are hard to remove from the die...maybe they are stretching back out?

    Brian
     
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