My new Dillon 650 - You were right! I was in over my head.

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  • craigkim

    Sharpshooter
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    Jun 6, 2013
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    Wow! I got my Dillon 650 set up on Sunday and the headaches began shortly thereafter! Those who seemed like naysayers in my thread about finding powder were SPOT ON! I was definitely in over my head. Erroneously, I thought that this press would be a machine and it will work the same way every time you pull the handle with the only difficulty being carefully measuring your components. I was WRONG! I happen to be the type who will obsess, research, and analyze something until I get it right though. I think I finally have a working setup after more than 20 hours invested.

    I carefully followed the instructions and checked and rechecked at every step. Initially I had NO issues with establishing a proper crimp and maintaining a consistent oal. I plunk tested 5 different dummy rounds. Powder charge was easy enough and some playing with the primer feeder showed it to be easy enough. The case feeder worked like a charm and the powder check station setup was easy. So far so good. I decided to try cycling the press and loading some rounds. That’s where it fell apart. Problem list: cases jamming at the top of the case feed assembly funnel, cases not feeding down into the casefeed arm, cases hanging up and jamming in the station 1 locator, cases not fully seated into station 1 and smashing, primers flipping in the pickup tube and getting stuck, primers loading improperly, primers incomplete seating, gradual oal variances, crimp die shifting and creating case bulges. I destroyed about 20 cases over the last few days and have about 20 cartridges I need to bullet pull.

    I actually took to operating the press essentially completely manually, not using the case feed and placing a case by hand in station 1, taking out the cartridge and placing a primer under the cartridge in 2, visually watching every step and checking powder weights on every round, oal and crimp on EVERY round. One by one, starting at the case feed, I tackled the issues. Most were easy. I spent about 10 hours on this.

    The casefeed issue is one of two that I have not fully figured out. The tube was slightly misaligned and angling the cases enough that they were hanging up. I had to adjust the cam to cycle the arm back farther. Problems persisted with the case feed though. Only last night was it working properly and I think it might have simply been the tube not being perfectly vertical to allow the cases to drop and sit flush on the station 1 locator..? the station 1 locator seems awfully loose, but I couldn’t figure out how to tighten it despite reviewing the manual and taking that assembly entirely apart.

    The primer issues seem to mostly be caused by the primer pickup tubes allowing primers to spin and flip over. This seems to be minimized by fully loading the primer pickup tubes, so that the primers hold each other in check. I had one improperly seated primer yesterday in 200 rounds. I don’t know what else to do?

    When I was manually operating the press and diagnosing, correcting issues… I loaded about 175 rounds of loads using Hornady new brass, WLP primers, Titegroup, and Sierra TM 230 grain FMJ RN. I checked and triple checked EVERY damn step. It took forever! I loaded a spectrum of charges and OALSs. I loaded at 1.255 OAL with both 4.5 and 4.7 grains of powder and then loaded at 1.65 OAL with 4.5 and 4.7 grains again. Sierras manual listed the oal as 1.270, but Wilson recommends 1.250-1.260 for feeding. Sierras manual also lists the max load as 5.2 grains of TG and I think 4.4 was the beginning load. I just picked 4.5 and 4.7 thinking either should be safe. I put calipers on EVERY one of the cartridges, plunk tested them in my 1911 and used a case gauge. I was pretty confident.

    I took them to the range yesterday. My intent was to try all of them in my HK 45 and then, if things seemed safe enough, my 1911. I began by shooting American Eagle 230 FMJ for comparison. Again, I had 4 different cartridges, 2 lengths and 2 charges. I had ZERO problems feeding or firing any of the loads in my HK 45t. I had no problems firing either length in my 1911 at the 4.5 TG charge. BUT, my Shok Buff got shredded by the 4.7 grain loads, after about 6 rounds, and began causing failures to return to battery. It was not a new shock buff, so it may have been on it’s last leg. I did not disassemble and get the 1911 going again, as I don’t want to shoot anymore of the 4.7 grain out of it until I have chrono data. I am now questioning if the shok buff sacrifices reliability for decreased wear on the firearm..?

    My shooting observations were interesting. The 4.5 loads seemed softer in recoil than the American Eagle as one might expect, but I preferred the 4.7 out of the HK. They were snappier in recoil and I felt like the gun just rocked back on target faster than with the factory ammo or the 4.5 grain reloads. I also shot better groups with the 4.7 loads than the AM Eagle. That being said, I am not shooting any more of the 4.7 out of my 1911 until I can be sure what it is doing.

    I left the range and headed home to my press. I set it up to run a batch of Sierra TM 230 grain FMJ RN, Starline new brass, WLP primers, 1.255 OAL, .469 crimp, 4.5 grains TG. I was then able to get the whole press running the way it should after quadruple checking powder throws. EVERYTHING was in sync and I was able to carefully load 150 rounds in about 15 minutes. I decided to pick up the pace a little and see what I could do. I loaded another 50 rounds in about 5 minutes. NO PROBLEMS. Everything seemed consistent. I checked OAL and used the case gauge. All good with the exception of 1 twisted primer. It was miraculous once it was finally operating per my expectations. In the long run, it will be worth it, but in the short run, for the time and the money, I could have done a lot more shooting of factory ammunition instead.

    Shwew. So, if you read all of this, I was hoping you may have tips or ideas to help. If nothing else, I thought one might enjoy reading about a guy who waaay underestimated how difficult reloading can be. Thanks.
     

    Que

    Meekness ≠ Weakness
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    Feb 20, 2009
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    You've only gone through what many have before you. Now that you have it down, the problem will be keeping components on hand, so you don't feel the frustration of not being able to reload when you want. As for not shooting out of your 1911, a load will shoot totally different out of your HK compared to the 1911, so experiment with different loads to find the best one for that particular gun.
     

    17 squirrel

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    May 15, 2013
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    Hummm.. So you are learning to reload on a fully progressive press ? That was a bad decision, a single stage press would have been the way to go.
    You should go to Profire and take a Dillon class, If you would have / do that most of your problems will go away.
     

    x10

    Master
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    Apr 11, 2009
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    Martinsville, IN
    Hey you need to step back and take a deep breath, you have a great machine and after you get your rhythm you'll find out its the best machine on the market.

    After you get into reloading you'll find yourself buying components as you find them. The secret is PLANNING you have to buy things way before you need them and you'll find out that sometimes you have components on the shelf for months before using them,

    Here's some of my tricks

    shoot a little bit of hornady one shot case lube on your cases and up in your die, It smoothes things up.

    Get plenty of primer tubes and fill them before you start a batch.

    Plan batches of 500-2000 forget the 50 round boxes, get ammo cans and go nuts

    The most important part of the reloading stroke is the ends of the stroke and the up stroke being the most important Make sure you seat the primer
     

    padawan

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    Feb 3, 2009
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    You've only gone through what many have before you. Now that you have it down, the problem will be keeping components on hand, so you don't feel the frustration of not being able to reload when you want. As for not shooting out of your 1911, a load will shoot totally different out of your HK compared to the 1911, so experiment with different loads to find the best one for that particular gun.

    QFT.

    I started with a Hornady single stage this winter.

    :ingo:
     

    Electronrider

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    Apr 2, 2008
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    Some people like to wade in from the shallow end, others like to jump right in on the deep end. Your doing good. You cannot look at the short term when analyzing costs for your 650. Pay attention to your process and enjoy!
     

    looney2ns

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    Jan 2, 2011
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    Hummm.. So you are learning to reload on a fully progressive press ? That was a bad decision, a single stage press would have been the way to go.
    You should go to Profire and take a Dillon class, If you would have / do that most of your problems will go away.


    Nope, don't agree. I didn't agree when I started reloading 4 years ago, and sure don't buy it now. I bought a Hornady LNL progressive as my first press, and haven't looked back.

    It's easy to setup a progressive to use as a single stage if you want to start out that way. Anything new to you has a learning curve.
     

    Dead Duck

    Grandmaster
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    Apr 1, 2011
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    Ya - Those progressive presses can be a real pain tn the butt.

    I'll tell what I'm going to do for you.
    I will trade you 10 brand new shiny 20 dollar bills for your problems and I'll even pay for shipping. :):



    650 is the way to go. It's a problem worth having.
     

    wsenefeld

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    Dec 2, 2011
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    Boone Co.
    Hummm.. So you are learning to reload on a fully progressive press ? That was a bad decision, a single stage press would have been the way to go.
    You should go to Profire and take a Dillon class, If you would have / do that most of your problems will go away.

    I learned on a Dillon 550 and am glad I did. You can still do one at a time. It isn't mandatory that you run full bore from the get go.
     

    17 squirrel

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    I learned on a Dillon 550 and am glad I did. You can still do one at a time. It isn't mandatory that you run full bore from the get go.

    A 550 is not a 650 in any manner.
    A 650 is fully progressive and a 550 is not.
    You can pull the brass pins on a 550 and use it as a single stage.

    That's coming for an guy who owns a 450,550 and a 650.

    Is someone wants to debate what kind of press to start with please start a post asking that question.. Sorry OP
     

    craigkim

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    A 550 is not a 650 in any manner.
    A 650 is fully progressive and a 550 is not.
    You can pull the brass pins on a 550 and use it as a single stage.

    That's coming for an guy who owns a 450,550 and a 650.

    Is someone wants to debate what kind of press to start with please start a post asking that question.. Sorry OP

    My intent of the thread was to ask what I can do to minimize my primers being improperly placed and just for tips in general. A secondary goal was others entertainment at my blundering through trying to go from no knowledge to running the 650 in about 12 days. Thanks to all for the encouragement. I knew I COULD do it and I am glad I figured it out. (All grain brewing is still the hardest thing I ever tackled in that manner with any success!) As I said, last night I was easily and proficiently running the machine at a pretty good pace. I don't think it was the 750 per hour that Dillon says, but it was probably over 600 at the end. The ammo all case gauged fine and oals measured consistently as did the crimp. Out of the 200 I made yesterday, I had the one wacky primer. I DO like the powder check station, FOR ME, because although I look and pay attention, I feel like it's a double check thing. I DO use the Hornady one shot, but I don't think I was getting enough into the case mouth and more was getting on the case exteriors. When I had the machine running along last night at a good pace, It was really pretty awesome. Ear to ear smile.

    That upstroke IS a real feel thing. I definitely had some trouble figuring that out. I also felt like you need to have a relatively smooth and steady speed to it as well. So, moderate even pace up and push to seat the primer, then moderate and steady pace down to a hard stop. As you all know, it takes a fairly deliberate stroke too, so that was hard at first, because I kept crunching cases under my resizing/decapping die, due to the failure of the case to seat properly on the first stage locator. That made me timid and played havoc on my rhythm. I learned to watch the case feed carefully then glance at the powder as I placed the bullet.

    I didn't want to learn on a different press with my goal being to be able to produce more ammo than my time would allow me to invest. I happened to have the last few days off of work, with no kids around, so it is a rare occasion for me to be able to invest that much time. My intended garage cleanup and basement organizing projects suffered as a result, but oh well. :) I'm going to load another couple of hundred rounds tonight and then put a cover on it until I can figure out how to chrono some of this ammo.
     

    CB45

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    Mar 29, 2010
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    My advice, find someone local who is a veteran reloader who can come help you learn how to use your machine.


    You using Dillon Dies? You shouldn't have Station 1 issues using Dillon Dies.

    I've never had primer alignment issues with a 650. I am can't seem to get what your issue is.
     
    Last edited:

    craigkim

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    I bought the press setup from Enos. Yes, Dillon everything. The die is not the issue. It was the station 1 locator and the case feed arm and tube, just not jiving. The case would hit the locator, which sits under the cam, as you know and it wouldn't find the rails of the locator as the "cam" or whatever that's called then started to try to push the case into station 1, it would hangup and jam outside of the plate and then when you ran the press "CRONK" right onto the brass. Talk about something to make you mad. I think I have that resolved. I messed with that entire assembly, cleaned it, regreased it, etc, no more problems. ???

    The primer thing, I dunno. I think the primers might be getting wobbly in the primer pickup tube or something. The bad one I had last night was not upside-down, more like at an angle as it seated..? I'll call Dillon if I run into it again.
     

    17 squirrel

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    My intent of the thread was to ask what I can do to minimize my primers being improperly placed and just for tips in general. A secondary goal was others entertainment at my blundering through trying to go from no knowledge to running the 650 in about 12 days. Thanks to all for the encouragement.

    I understand what you are saying, but you did not ask for help on reasons why primers are flipping over on you.. If I had to guess if they are flipping over in your primer fill tubes you probably are not using the correct size fill tube.
    If they are flipping over in the primer storage on the press you are not using the right storage tube. If they are clipping over in the primer holder before you seat them, I would guess you are not operating the press smoothly.
    Also some manufactures primers do not work well with Dillon machines.
    I use nothing but Federal and Winchester primers.
    Now back to getting no education before you start reloading. Its foolish and unsafe not only for you but others in your household and others shooting next to you at the range. A afternoon or two taking a class gives you a world of knowledge, money well spent. It's easy enough to have a catastrophic accident with decades of reloading surely it is more likely with little to no knowledge.
    I have seen a lot of things happen in more than 40 years of loading,,


    some people teach you do's and some teach you dont's......


    bad things happen with reloading, normally its from a lack of education.

    This is JMHO written here and its not meant to offend anyone especially the OP... :)
     

    craigkim

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    I understand what you are saying, but you did not ask for help on reasons why primers are flipping over on you.. If I had to guess if they are flipping over in your primer fill tubes you probably are not using the correct size fill tube.
    If they are flipping over in the primer storage on the press you are not using the right storage tube. If they are clipping over in the primer holder before you seat them, I would guess you are not operating the press smoothly.
    Also some manufactures primers do not work well with Dillon machines.
    I use nothing but Federal and Winchester primers.
    Now back to getting no education before you start reloading. Its foolish and unsafe not only for you but others in your household and others shooting next to you at the range. A afternoon or two taking a class gives you a world of knowledge, money well spent. It's easy enough to have a catastrophic accident with decades of reloading surely it is more likely with little to no knowledge.
    I have seen a lot of things happen in more than 40 years of loading,,


    some people teach you do's and some teach you dont's......


    bad things happen with reloading, normally its from a lack of education.

    This is JMHO written here and its not meant to offend anyone especially the OP... :)

    Ah, I can't disagree at all with what you are saying and I am not a proponent of trying to reload with NO education. I just laugh, that I realized how serious and difficult it is AFTER I decided to get started. I ordered my press and hit the books HARD. I started with ABCs of reloading, then Lyman's manual, then referenced for a comparo - Hornady's manual, then Sierra's. I got the Dillon Setup DVD and the Enos reloading for competition. Watched them both. Literally took notes and memorized what is happening at each cycle and stage. I have a friend who reloads and ran questions by him - frequently. Then I surfed the internet trying to find common problems with the 650, so I knew how to overcome those. I spent 8 years in post high school education, I know how to study, and I pretended it was a board exam I was studying for... it was more interesting though.

    I agree that reloading could be dangerous if you approach it nonchalantly. I did not. I was checking EVERY round for powder on my digital scale in the beginning and transitioned to every third or fourth later. My biggest fear was a double load or a non charged load. After seeing the Sierra manual for the 230 FMJ I was loading list 5.2 grains of Titegroup as the max and most accurate load they tested, I was pretty sure I could reload at 4.5 and be fine and more than likely 4.7. Point is,... if you are super careful, you should be fine.

    Factory ammo can be dangerous too. I had a super light Remington 9mm fmj out of my HK VP9 the other week. It sounded like ONLY the primer went off and the slide didn't budge. The bullet cleared the barrel, but that was one of the reasons I started getting even more interested in reloading.

    Feel free to correct me. You can't learn if no one ever tells you that you are wrong.
     

    17 squirrel

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    craigkim;5862972. Feel free to correct me. You can't learn if no one ever tells you that you are wrong.[/QUOTE said:
    I did tell you twice as a matter of fact, but you keep telling me why you're right both times. Lol

    So with that, what do you tell a woman with two black eyes ?









    Nothing, you have already told her twice.

    Again nothing personal here***, Good luck...
     

    Gluemanz28

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    I did tell you twice as a matter of fact, but you keep telling me why you're right both times. Lol

    So with that, what do you tell a woman with two black eyes ?









    Nothing, you have already told her twice.

    Again nothing personal here***, Good luck...

    So educate me why hitting women is funny or a good idea :dunno:
     

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