Winchester Train & Defend ammo

[TB1999]

I saw on facebook that a lgs has an upcoming Winchester event for their Train & Defend ammo. I signed up before I even researched what the product was. Well, today I looked it up and it seems like a pretty legit idea.

From my limited research...the Train & Defend line comes in both an inexpensive FMJ (train) and a more expensive hollow point (defend). Both the FMJ and HP are supposed to act the same way when fired. Why train with a cheaper round and then carry something completely different for real world defense?

Has anyone tried this ammo? Is anyone else going to the Winchester event on July 26 at Kodiak range?

 

[throttletony]

haven't heard of it but I like the idea.

So would they be sold in the same box, or as a package? any idea?
(like a 50rd box of 'train' + a 20rd box of 'defend' packaged together)

 

[wesnellans]

haven't heard of it but I like the idea.

So would they be sold in the same box, or as a package? any idea?
(like a 50rd box of 'train' + a 20rd box of 'defend' packaged together)

I've seen them packaged both together and separately. Depends on the SKU ordered, I'm guessing.

Haven't shot any - don't care for the "defend" load, so haven't ventured down the path.

 

[Restroyer]

I have used the 9MM Winchester Train ammo. It works great and to be honest with you it has more recoil than the Federal or Herters so it gives plenty of recoil for practicing. My wife uses it a lot too. I here some people at gun counters say it's not really for defense. Well, it's not a high impact round but dead is dead. So, I would highly recommend it based on my experiences with it in 9mm.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I have used the 9MM Winchester Train ammo. It works great and to be honest with you it has more recoil than the Federal or Herters so it gives plenty of recoil for practicing. My wife uses it a lot too. I here some people at gun counters say it's not really for defense. Well, it's not a high impact round but dead is dead. So, I would highly recommend it based on my experiences with it in 9mm.

I suggest researching defensive ammo vs ball/practice ammo and why you should carry the former over the latter.

 

[oldpink]

I suggest researching defensive ammo vs ball/practice ammo and why you should carry the former over the latter.

Yep, namely the difference between ball/FMJ and hollowpoint, and why the latter is the only acceptable choice.
I would also add that going by how a round "feels" as a measurement of a given round's effectiveness is, questionable to put it kindly.

 

[TB1999]

I've seen them packaged both together and separately. Depends on the SKU ordered, I'm guessing.

Haven't shot any - don't care for the "defend" load, so haven't ventured down the path.

What don't you like about it?

 

[TB1999]

haven't heard of it but I like the idea.

So would they be sold in the same box, or as a package? any idea?
(like a 50rd box of 'train' + a 20rd box of 'defend' packaged together)

I actually saw the train ammo (by itself) today in walmart. $27 for 50 pack of .45.

 

[Restroyer]

Yep, namely the difference between ball/FMJ and hollowpoint, and why the latter is the only acceptable choice.
I would also add that going by how a round "feels" as a measurement of a given round's effectiveness is, questionable to put it kindly.

I can put 9 out of 10 through the heart at 12 yards. The 10th still being a shoulder shot and being a former expert shot in the Army I know the difference between how a round feels and accuracy. The point I was making that the misconception is that the training version of this ammo doesn't have much recoil because that is how it is presented when in fact it does have plenty of recoil and is a very nice round. Yes, hollow point is better but if you are a good shot it doesn't really matter.

 

[oldpink]

I can put 9 out of 10 through the heart at 12 yards. The 10th still being a shoulder shot and being a former expert shot in the Army I know the difference between how a round feels and accuracy. The point I was making that the misconception is that the training version of this ammo doesn't have much recoil because that is how it is presented when in fact it does have plenty of recoil and is a very nice round. Yes, hollow point is better but if you are a good shot it doesn't really matter.

You're speaking from the view of a veteran (yes, I'm one, too) who was required by the Hague Convention to use hardball ammo.
Again, take CameraMonkey's advice to research the reasons for expanding ammo over hardball.
Hint: It's not just about terminal performance in stopping the threat.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I can put 9 out of 10 through the heart at 12 yards. The 10th still being a shoulder shot and being a former expert shot in the Army I know the difference between how a round feels and accuracy. The point I was making that the misconception is that the training version of this ammo doesn't have much recoil because that is how it is presented when in fact it does have plenty of recoil and is a very nice round. Yes, hollow point is better but if you are a good shot it doesn't really matter.

OK, so another hint... Look up "overpenetration". Thats what you deal with carrying FMJs in your EDC. JHPs are less likely to end up with a "through and through", which means two things:
1: less damage to internal organs when using FMJs. (meaning less likely to incapacitate vs JHP)
And more importantly...
2: risk of your bullet going where you dont want it to go no matter HOW good of a shot you are. Are you prepared to hit what is BEYOND your target even though you successfully hit your target? Yes, you hit his heart... But then where did that FMJ go after that? out his back and then....?

Either you are trolling or you SERIOUSLY need to educate yourself on proper ammo use.

 

[Bigtanker]

I think the 9mm is only available in 147 grain. Those tend to have a bit more recoil than the 115 from my experience.

 

[Restroyer]

You're speaking from the view of a veteran (yes, I'm one, too) who was required by the Hague Convention to use hardball ammo.
Again, take CameraMonkey's advice to research the reasons for expanding ammo over hardball.
Hint: It's not just about terminal performance in stopping the threat.

Hague Covention? Whatever, I have hollow point ammo as well, the OP's comment was about if anyone had experience with the Winchester Train and Defend and I gave my opinion since I have used the Training version. Some of you guys (to put it kindly) don't give input but sit like a vulture waiting to critique someone's comment. If you and Cotton Candy Mustache Man assume that I don't know the difference between HP and hardball ammo then you assume wrong. My point is that the Training ammo is better than what people give it credit for and that's it. Not trying to get in a pee pee contest with you. Just trying to give the OP the advice he asked for based on my experience.

 

[Restroyer]

OK, so another hint... Look up "overpenetration". Thats what you deal with carrying FMJs in your EDC. JHPs are less likely to end up with a "through and through", which means two things:
1: less damage to internal organs when using FMJs. (meaning less likely to incapacitate vs JHP)
And more importantly...
2: risk of your bullet going where you dont want it to go no matter HOW good of a shot you are. Are you prepared to hit what is BEYOND your target even though you successfully hit your target? Yes, you hit his heart... But then where did that FMJ go after that? out his back and then....?

Either you are trolling or you SERIOUSLY need to educate yourself on proper ammo use.

Not Trolling Candy Mustache. Never said I use Winchester Train as my EDC. You assume too much. Maybe you should try and not watch so much gun TV and not overanalyze my comments. Yes, I know about overpenetration and yes I know the difference between FMJ and HP. Just giving the OP my personal experience with the Winchester training round. I have not used the Defend round so I couldn't give my opinion on that. I have used many different types of rounds both as a Army vet and as a hunter (I don't use HP but JSP for deer), and as an avid shooter. Now go find someone else to impress.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Sorry Restroyer, but your posts indicate that you are perfectly OK with carrying ball ammo as a defensive load... after all, if you are good and always hit your target, problem solved. Right?

Yes, hollow point is better but if you are a good shot it doesn't really matter.

That tells me "I'm OK to carry ball ammo because if I hit a bad guy, its all good." Sorry, reality (and physics) says otherwise. And apparently I'm not the only one who thinks this.

Sorry if you feel attacked. The goal here is to educate and help others correct mistakes and misconceptions to help them be safe and efficient.

I too have been on the receiving end before and felt attacked. In hindsight I am now grateful for those here who are much more seasoned and experienced showing me the error of my ways.

 

[Restroyer]

Sorry Restroyer, but your posts indicate that you are perfectly OK with carrying ball ammo as a defensive load... after all, if you are good and always hit your target, problem solved. Right?


That tells me "I'm OK to carry ball ammo because if I hit a bad guy, its all good." Sorry, reality (and physics) says otherwise. And apparently I'm not the only one who thinks this.

Sorry if you feel attacked. The goal here is to educate and help others correct mistakes and misconceptions to help them be safe and efficient.

I too have been on the receiving end before and felt attacked. In hindsight I am now grateful for those here who are much more seasoned and experienced showing me the error of my ways.

The comment again was not intended for EDC. You assume I mean a public shootout? Maybe I was referring to waking up to a robber in the middle of the night. You don't know. You assumed. Maybe I carry HP when I drive and maybe I have a bedside gun(s) that might contain FMJ. What I don't like to hear is people tell others that you have to use HP for stopping power otherwise you'll penetrate right through the bad guy and he'll keep coming. Now, I have never been shot, but I have seen people shot and it's not like the movies where the bad guy gets shot several times and just keeps coming. So you keep educating and "make people feel safe". As for the seaoned and experienced part, I earned that the hard way and not by posting 5564 posts on a forum.

 

[TB1999]

Hague Covention? Whatever, I have hollow point ammo as well, the OP's comment was about if anyone had experience with the Winchester Train and Defend and I gave my opinion since I have used the Training version. Some of you guys (to put it kindly) don't give input but sit like a vulture waiting to critique someone's comment. If you and Cotton Candy Mustache Man assume that I don't know the difference between HP and hardball ammo then you assume wrong. My point is that the Training ammo is better than what people give it credit for and that's it. Not trying to get in a pee pee contest with you. Just trying to give the OP the advice he asked for based on my experience.

Right. Thread is about Winchester T&D ammo, not fmj vs hp.

 

[poppy]

 

[oldpink]

Adults understand the difference between honest advice and personal attacks.
The others take every comment as a personal slight and feel fully justified in behaving petulantly.

 

[Arthur Dent]

I completely get the idea behind the Winchester Train/Defend ammo. My only issue with it is the cost of the training ammo. The defense ammo cost isn't really an issue as that is what you really don't use when you're honing your skills at the range or in a training class. The training ammo is a bit more than other FMJ range fodder, at least where I've seen the ammo for sale. I realize that there will be a bit of a step up in price using the Winchester ammo because of its purpose but the price differential is pretty significant. That's a bit of a deal breaker for me having a limited budget.