Accurate 1680 ignition problems in 300 BLK

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • CountryBoy19

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 91.7%
    11   1   0
    Nov 10, 2008
    8,412
    63
    Bedford, IN
    Anybody else seeing this in the latest batch of AA1680 that came from Powder Valley just a few weeks ago?

    Load:
    cast & water-dropped 230 gr Lee 5R bullet, powder-coated and sized to .3095"
    Case: mixed head-stamp but mostly converted Winchester 556 brass purchased on INGO classifieds as twice fired.
    Cases were sized then washed of all lube with VM&P Naptha and allowed to dry for 24 hrs.
    Primer: Wolf .223 primers
    Powder: AA 1680, 11.2 gr
    bullet taper crimped with Hornady seating die
    Seating length (COAL): just a bit under max (I think .050" under max to allow a bit more room in the mag)

    Gun:
    home-built AR upper running standard parts, 10.5" no-name barrel & form 1 30 cal suppressor

    What I'm experiencing:
    I loaded up 20 test loads between 11-11.2 gr to get velocity where I wanted it (subsonic) and verify bullet stability before putting suppressor on.
    11.0 gave me 600-700 fps so I bumped up to 11.2 and I got 940-970 fps
    Bullets were stable and no other issues arose so I put suppressor on part way through the 20 test loads. All seemed well; I did notice a little bit of what seemed to be unburned or partially burned powder. Considering most people are getting ~1000 fps with 11.1 gr the thought did cross my mind about unreliable ignition but I charged forward and didn't have any other issues with the test loads.

    I wanted to go shoot with my brother/dad and also to try 11.3 gr to see if it was still sub-sonic. I loaded 10 loads at 11.3 gr and 90 loads at 11.2 gr.

    Go out shooting and put 5 rounds of the 11.2 gr loads in the mag, bang, bang, puff
    Dang, how could I have missed adding powder to a case? Waited a minute with rifle pointed down range then eject casing, unburned powder everywhere and bullet lodged 3 inches from muzzle
    Tap bullet out with wood dowel and try again: Puff WTF???
    Eject case, unburned powder everywhere, Bullet lodged 6" from muzzle
    Gave up on shooting that gun/load because I assume I now have a problem that needs corrected...

    WTH is going on? Anybody else seeing issues with this last batch of powder? I've never had ignition problems like this before.

    Do I need more crimp?
    Do I need to size my bullets larger? I have .3105" sizer as well but from what I read .309-.310 is the sweet spot for these bullets and my .3095 die is right in the middle.
     
    Last edited:

    romack991

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    May 27, 2012
    707
    18
    Odd. I bought my 1680 from PV earlier in the year but haven't had any problems with it. Are you sure everything was completely dry?

    For comparison
    220gr Sierra RN, 2.100" OAL, Converted PMC brass, AA1680
    10.7 was 850 fps
    11.3 was 930 fps
    11.8 was 1020 fps
    16" barrel, Not suppressed
     

    17 squirrel

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    May 15, 2013
    4,427
    63
    Have you always used Naptha as a case cleaner ?
    I would tend to think that the fumes or some Naptha did not evaporate and is causing your ignition problems.
     

    CountryBoy19

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 91.7%
    11   1   0
    Nov 10, 2008
    8,412
    63
    Bedford, IN
    Have you always used Naptha as a case cleaner ?
    I would tend to think that the fumes or some Naptha did not evaporate and is causing your ignition problems.
    Been doing it for years to remove the lube after sizing... never had a problem before...

    That being said the cases were dried for 24 hrs laid out on a towel there certainly shouldn't have been any remaining naptha. Even if there was, naptha's components are similar to the volatile compounds used in the powder/primer making process and shouldn't render them ineffective.
    I'd suspect issues with the Wolf primers before I would the powder.
    Because they are Wolf brand or because they are primers and primers are sensitive to conditions that could render them ineffective?
    Are the Wolf primers magnum primers?
    They are the Wolf 223 primer, which according to Wolf is slightly hotter than their small rifle magnum primer and should light off even the hardest to light powders...
     
    Last edited:

    17 squirrel

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    May 15, 2013
    4,427
    63
    Been doing it for years to remove the lube after sizing... never had a problem before...

    That being said the cases were dried for 24 hrs laid out on a towel there certainly shouldn't have been any remaining naptha. Even if there was, naptha's components are similar to the volatile compounds used in the powder/primer making process and shouldn't render them ineffective.

    Because they are Wolf brand or because they are primers and primers are sensitive to conditions that could render them ineffective?

    They are the Wolf 223 primer, which according to Wolf is slightly hotter than their small rifle magnum primer and should light off even the hardest to light powders...

    I wouldn't be so fast to justify why we are wrong. I dought the new powder has issues. What that leaves is what components you are using and your own loading practices.
    I fourty years of loading I have never heard or seen anyone cleaning brass with VM&P Naptha , that's a very heavy hydrocarbon I believe. Personally I would not want to load brass that was degreased that way. I would not want to possibly mix powder / primers with fumes and or liquid, im not a chemist and i dont know the possibly pitfalls of doing so. I would suggest you load a few more without cleaning with VM&P Naptha. I would do a short run that way and if the problem still exists I would change primers and go with a different company's Mag primer.
    Another question, is that powder listed by the manufacture with the load you are using ?
    Maybe you need some pufflon filler to keep the charge in the bottom of the case in front of the primer.
    Change one thing at a time and I believe very quickly you will find out what the problem is.
     

    Broom_jm

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 10, 2009
    3,691
    48
    "Because they are Wolf brand or because they are primers and primers are sensitive to conditions that could render them ineffective?"

    Yes, because they are Wolf brand and may present a quality problem. Have you tried another brand of primer?
     

    CountryBoy19

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 91.7%
    11   1   0
    Nov 10, 2008
    8,412
    63
    Bedford, IN
    I wouldn't be so fast to justify why we are wrong. I dought the new powder has issues. What that leaves is what components you are using and your own loading practices.
    I'm not trying to justify anybody being wrong, simply providing an explanation.

    I fourty years of loading I have never heard or seen anyone cleaning brass with VM&P Naptha , that's a very heavy hydrocarbon I believe. Personally I would not want to load brass that was degreased that way.
    It's quite common... snipershide is where I learned the practice and I think those guys know a little bit about reloading...

    That being said, can you possibly explain in more detail why the naptha concerns you? It's highly volatile, and after evaporation is complete it leave no residue behind so I don't understand where you're coming from with your thought that the naptha could in some way effect the powder.

    What is your preferred degreasing method for brass?

    Another question, is that powder listed by the manufacture with the load you are using ?
    Maybe you need some pufflon filler to keep the charge in the bottom of the case in front of the primer.
    Change one thing at a time and I believe very quickly you will find out what the problem is.
    Yes the powder is not only listed by the manufacturer for the load I'm using, it is likely the single most popular & widely used powder for the cartridge/bullet combo I'm using.

    Yes, because they are Wolf brand and may present a quality problem. Have you tried another brand of primer?
    I've been loading with Wolf brand primers for a decade now and the ONLY quality problems I've encountered were improperly seated anvils. I don't believe Wolf has anymore quality problem than any other primer manufacturer so I think you're a bit out of line to suggest that my problems are related to the brand of primer simply because of the name...

    If you were to suggest my issues may be due to a bad batch of primers, or mishandled/stored primers etc I would agree that it's possible and try some other primers (they would likely be the same brand)...
     

    17 squirrel

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    May 15, 2013
    4,427
    63
    I'm not trying to justify anybody being wrong, simply providing an explanation.


    It's quite common... snipershide is where I learned the practice and I think those guys know a little bit about reloading...

    That being said, can you possibly explain in more detail why the naptha concerns you? It's highly volatile, and after evaporation is complete it leave no residue behind so I don't understand where you're coming from with your thought that the naptha could in some way effect the powder.

    What is your preferred degreasing method for brass?


    Yes the powder is not only listed by the manufacturer for the load I'm using, it is likely the single most popular & widely used powder for the cartridge/bullet combo I'm using...

    Like I said in 40 years of Reloading I have never read or met someone who degreases brass with a cleaner such as VM&P Naptha. To me and my experience I just would not feel comfortable using it. For one is a low flash point hydrocarbon, two why fool with volatile chemical when its not nessessery. Also I am not a chemist and I don't know the affects of residual vapor or liquid would have with smokeless powder and or primers. Its easy to say that all traces of VM&P Naptha has evaporated but are you sure ?
    It's a heavy chemical, its easy to say its the same makeup as powder and primers but are you a chemist ?
    Are the members on Sniper Hide suggesting VM&P Naptha to clean cases with VM&P chemist ?

    I dry tumble all my brass. Easy fast and does a great job, and I'm not fooling with any bad chemicals unnecessarily.

    I believe you need to change what you load one thing at a time.
    The easiest thing to change is not to use VM&P Naptha.
    Load 20 without cleaning cases and see what happens.
    Then change primers or use primers from a different lot #
    Then take some pillow stuffing fiber and put a small amount on top of your powder to keep it in the bottom of the case for better ignition.
    It's called pufflon ,pufflin something like that.
     

    Woobie

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 19, 2014
    7,197
    63
    Losantville
    All good advice above. I don't think anyone is disparaging your choice of components, but bad primers are as likely as bad powder. I've never done the naphtha thing. I really don't worry too much about size lube, really. But like squirrel, I'll dry tumble sometimes. Dad recently got a sonic cleaner, and I went over and tried it. I like it, but I gave them a week to dry. 1680 is definitely a good powder choice. Try the above advice, as it's all cheap and easy.

    I wonder if you're not generating enough pressure, though. It sounds like it to me with low velocities and unburnt powder. If your manual is telling you that your charge should yield 300-400 more fps, it just seems odd. You might try running your bullets through a bit larger sizing die and see what that does. Or check your hardness, they might be too soft. I don't cast, so I can't really offer much, as far as that goes. The worst case scenario is your bore is too big on that barrel, but that seems pretty unlikely. It just looks like low pressure to me.

    Just to give you an example, I've never moly coated my .308 Win bullets. I've kicked the idea around, but never did, basically for the reason that I am trying to achieve more velocity so I get a flatter trajectory at longer ranges. Being slicker, the moly bullets are slower. "But wouldn't they go faster since they can slide in the barrel better?" It sounds good, but in reality, you are counting on specific amount of force being applied over time by the bullet through friction with the barrel. Reduce that friction over time, either through adding lubricity, reducing bullet diameter, or shortening the barrel, and you will have a less complete burn for a given powder, thus yielding lower pressures. All other things being equal, less pressure=lower velocity. If that powder's burn rate is longer than it takes for that bullet to get out of the barrel, you will also have unburnt powder.

    Sorry if that is all elementary to you, just trying to throw out stuff to help explain the thought process. Good luck.
     
    Last edited:

    CountryBoy19

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 91.7%
    11   1   0
    Nov 10, 2008
    8,412
    63
    Bedford, IN
    The easiest thing to change is not to use VM&P Naptha.
    Actually, it's not so easy... I have 1,000 rds of brass, ALL of them have been sized and subsequently cleaned with naptha. I can't go back and un-do that.
    Load 20 without cleaning cases and see what happens.
    See above
    Then change primers or use primers from a different lot #
    This I can do, and will do.
    Then take some pillow stuffing fiber and put a small amount on top of your powder to keep it in the bottom of the case for better ignition.
    It's called pufflon ,pufflin something like that.
    I can also do this but this load is already at ~75% case capacity if I recall after you figure in the fact that the bullet seats very deep into the case...

    I wonder if you're not generating enough pressure, though. It sounds like it to me with low velocities and unburnt powder. If your manual is telling you that your charge should yield 300-400 more fps, it just seems odd. You might try running your bullets through a bit larger sizing die and see what that does. Or check your hardness, they might be too soft. I don't cast, so I can't really offer much, as far as that goes. The worst case scenario is your bore is too big on that barrel, but that seems pretty unlikely. It just looks like low pressure to me.

    Just to give you an example, I've never moly coated my .308 Win bullets. I've kicked the idea around, but never did, basically for the reason that I am trying to achieve more velocity so I get a flatter trajectory at longer ranges. Being slicker, the moly bullets are slower. "But wouldn't they go faster since they can slide in the barrel better?" It sounds good, but in reality, you are counting on specific amount of force being applied over time by the bullet through friction with the barrel. Reduce that friction over time, either through adding lubricity, reducing bullet diameter, or shortening the barrel, and you will have a less complete burn for a given powder, thus yielding lower pressures. All other things being equal, less pressure=lower velocity. If that powder's burn rate is longer than it takes for that bullet to get out of the barrel, you will also have unburnt powder.

    Sorry if that is all elementary to you, just trying to throw out stuff to help explain the thought process. Good luck.

    That is/was my initial thought but everything I'm doing load wise is in line with what others are doing and have been doing for years on this load/bullet. I just wanted to see if anybody else was having powder issues before I try to chase down problems...

    That being said, I think the easiest thing I can do is put a little more crimp on the rds I have loaded already and see if that increases my backpressure enough to aid stronger ignition. More crimp can't hurt too much...
     

    jblomenberg16

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    67   0   0
    Mar 13, 2008
    9,920
    63
    Southern Indiana
    The only time I've had similar issues was with 300 blk subs. Seating depth was very critical on my loads with slower burning stick powder. I don't have any direct experience with 1680.
     

    Broom_jm

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 10, 2009
    3,691
    48
    I've been loading with Wolf brand primers for a decade now and the ONLY quality problems I've encountered were improperly seated anvils. I don't believe Wolf has anymore quality problem than any other primer manufacturer so I think you're a bit out of line to suggest that my problems are related to the brand of primer simply because of the name...

    If you were to suggest my issues may be due to a bad batch of primers, or mishandled/stored primers etc I would agree that it's possible and try some other primers (they would likely be the same brand)...

    I've been reloading with CCI primers for 25 years and never had a single problem with them. During the last 5 or 6 years, with huge numbers of folks getting into reloading, there have been more QC problems with all types of components than we used to see. This is likely a result of the sheer volume of product companies are turning out just to keep up with demand.

    Answer me this: If price and availability was identical between all primer brands, would you still use Wolf primers?
     

    Sirshredalot

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    12   0   0
    Mar 15, 2011
    929
    18
    Muncie
    No experience with 300blk but I scrapped 1500ish wolf primers because of simalar issues in .223.

    I wouldn't even get a puff...just a click and a nice heavy crater in the primer....I had to deprime about 500 cases and toss those primers .....I will never again use wolf components.

    God bless
    - Shred
     

    CountryBoy19

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 91.7%
    11   1   0
    Nov 10, 2008
    8,412
    63
    Bedford, IN
    Answer me this: If price and availability was identical between all primer brands, would you still use Wolf primers?
    From my experience with them I have no reason not to continue using them even if price/availability were the same as other primers.

    That being said, if price were the same I would likely choose an American brand simply to support the US makers.

    No experience with 300blk but I scrapped 1500ish wolf primers because of simalar issues in .223.

    I wouldn't even get a puff...just a click and a nice heavy crater in the primer....I had to deprime about 500 cases and toss those primers .....I will never again use wolf components.

    God bless
    - Shred
    Can you elaborate anymore? Were the anvils seated correctly? Were the primers stored properly and were there any signs of problems other than no bang? Did you contact wolf and see if they could tell you more?
     

    Sirshredalot

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    12   0   0
    Mar 15, 2011
    929
    18
    Muncie
    From my experience with them I have no reason not to continue using them even if price/availability were the same as other primers.

    That being said, if price were the same I would likely choose an American brand simply to support the US makers.


    Can you elaborate anymore? Were the anvils seated correctly? Were the primers stored properly and were there any signs of problems other than no bang? Did you contact wolf and see if they could tell you more?
    I did contact wolf and they had good communication...but said that they had never heard of such a thing...even though you can find similar stories peppered throughout several forums.

    The primers where all seater with my rcbs bench prime....this has a very good feel to it and since I load these in small batches on a single stage I do inspect each one as they come off the press.

    Loaded up the rest of my prepped cases with Cci primers and shot them all without a hitch.

    God bless
    - Shred
     

    CountryBoy19

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 91.7%
    11   1   0
    Nov 10, 2008
    8,412
    63
    Bedford, IN
    The primers where all seater with my rcbs bench prime....this has a very good feel to it and since I load these in small batches on a single stage I do inspect each one as they come off the press.

    I'm not talking about seating the primer, I'm talking about how the anvil is seated into the primer. In the tens of thousands of wolf primers I've fired I have come across 3 instances of an improperly seated anvil. If the anvil isn't in the primer properly it won't work. Simple solution to the problem is to inspect the primers before priming your cases (you should probably be doing that anyways). What I was getting at is that if you didn't inspect your primers you may have encountered this problem and that was the reason your cases didn't fire. That is the only documented problem I've seen from Wolf primers; all problems associated with that are 100% preventable by the user so I don't see it as a deal-killer type of problem.
     

    Broom_jm

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 10, 2009
    3,691
    48
    In all honesty, you're the first person I have ever heard suggest that one should inspect primers before inserting them into a case. What's more, I've seated literally tens of thousands of primers into cases without checking them and, lo and behold, 99.9% of them have worked. Given that you're determined to use an inferior product, YMMV.
     

    17 squirrel

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    May 15, 2013
    4,427
    63
    In all honesty, you're the first person I have ever heard suggest that one should inspect primers before inserting them into a case. What's more, I've seated literally tens of thousands of primers into cases without checking them and, lo and behold, 99.9% of them have worked. Given that you're determined to use an inferior product, YMMV.

    inspect primers before they are pressed in, that's interesting, a complete waste of time , but interesting.
    i always thought that the anvil was seated in place and the primer activated when the primer bottomed out in the case. ahhhhh.,.,.,.,., tens and tens and tens of thousands of loaded rounds and i have never checked a primer anvil before or after its been installed....

    what do i know,, you try to help someone who asked for help, and all he tells you is you're wrong. Good Luck OP
     
    Top Bottom