What am I doing wrong?

[vvet762]

I am loading 40 S&W and about 20 percent are not passing the Wilson gauge test. I am using 4.2 grains of Titegroup with Berry's 180 grain bullets. I am concerned about crimping too much and causing excess pressure in the case. Every round that fails has a pressure ring in the copper. (see attached photo) I seat the bullet for an over all length of 1.127 to 1.131 (1.135 is max according to Lee's manual.)
Any help will be appreciated. I hate to keep having to unload all these rejects.

 

[bulletsmith]

You are starting with casings that are within an acceptable length range?

 

[ckcollins2003]

I've always thought a little bulge was normal, depending on how the bullet is made. I loaded 180gr x-treme's once and got bulges like that and didn't worry about it as they all fed through my pistol just fine. Since then I've switched to the cheaper 165gr bullets and don't get the bulge as often. I've read on a few forums that it's more because of brass and the thickness of the brass where the bullet is seated.

I'm no professional reloader, but also not a complete newbie so some more experienced people will be along shortly to correct me if I'm wrong. I am however a strong believer that your barrel should be your "go or no go" gauge.

Oh, and suggestions to remove the bulge has been to crimp just enough to eliminate the flare...

 

[bulletsmith]

Am I looking at this wrong? Is your concern about failing the test? or the bulge? I assume that the bulge is a result of a longer case resulting in a deeper crimp.

 

[chillidip1]

I don't think adding crimp will solve your issue. I have a bar-sto barrel in my 40 and it can be really persnickety, so I feel your pain.

If your resized brass fits in your gauge and barrel the next issue I'd consider is 20 percent of your bullets aren't seating square to the brass. Its hard to be sure based on your photo but that's my best guess as to the cause of your problem.

The following are some general diagnostics that I think are helpful that I copied from another site:

Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.
　

 

[RipkinC]

Can you show a pic of it failing the case gauge. It could be 1 of 2 main issues, bulged brass from a unsupported chamber (mostly glocks), it could be a crimp issue. Past those it could be a few others, but with 40 I like to check the first 2 most common problems out of the way first.

 

[oldpink]

My first instinct is to ask if you're attempting to seat and crimp in one step.
If so, you're already doing it wrong, and it's probably at least part of the problem, if not all of it.
The reason is that seating and crimping simultaneously makes your die do two things at the same time that conflict with each other, i.e. the bullet is seating, even as the crimper is squeezing in the case mouth on it, which can and will cause case mouth distortions.
If that's what you're doing, you need to back off your seating die enough to stop the crimp shoulder from engaging the case mouth.
There are a couple of options you have for that:
1) You can make it easy to reverse and still use the same die to both seat and crimp by putting a spare die lock ring under the one you already should have locked in place, which will lift the die body enough to stop crimping.
With this arrangement, you just seat all your bullets in one step with the extra ring in place, unscrew the die, remove that extra ring, screw your die back down all the way to its one lock ring, then back off the seater stem to the top of its travel to avoid it contacting your bullets and shoving them further in your case, now, crimp by running all your seated bullet rounds.
2) Get a separate crimp die (I highly recommend the Lee Factory Crimp die), permanently raise the die body on your seater die by locking the lock ring with the die body high enough up to put the crimp shoulder away from the case mouth.
Seat all rounds with the seater, unscrew seater die, screw the crimp die, crimp all round. DONE

 

[Broom_jm]

While an improperly adjusted seating/crimping die could be causing this problem, that does not mean seating and crimping in the same operation is "doing it wrong". If you know how to adjust the die, there isn't a reason in the world to do them in separate operations. I seat and crimp bullets for the very thin-necked 44/40 WCF cartridge...and that's way more delicate than any 40S&W!

It's difficult to tell from a single picture, but the crimp on the cartridge shown above appears to be excessive. For cases that headspace on the mouth, like the 40S&W, the term "crimp" is misleading. You want to remove the belling of the case mouth...and nothing more. It is only when you try to apply a fairly heavy crimp, which you appear to be doing, that case bulge is likely to come into play.

 

[billybob44]

Great post...

I don't think adding crimp will solve your issue. I have a bar-sto barrel in my 40 and it can be really persnickety, so I feel your pain.

If your resized brass fits in your gauge and barrel the next issue I'd consider is 20 percent of your bullets aren't seating square to the brass. Its hard to be sure based on your photo but that's my best guess as to the cause of your problem.

The following are some general diagnostics that I think are helpful that I copied from another site:

Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.
　

"--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster."

^^^This is probably the problem..If using range brass, from unknown chamber, it is wise to run through a "Pass Through" die before processing.

All of my .40 S&W and 10MM range brass goes through a Redding Gr-X carbide pass through die.

+1 on ONLY Taper crimp enough to JUST remove the "Bell" from the mouth of the case...Bill.
　

 

[bulletsmith]

I think we need a little more feed back from the OP. He refers to a pressure ring in the copper. Is he asking about the dent in the copper jacket of the bullet that is created as a result of the crimp? If so, and that dent is only present on rounds that fail, it may point to a case length issue. Again, I may be reading this wrong. Most of you are addressing what appears to be a slight case bulge in the photo. It does look like a slight non axial alignment.

 

[vvet762]

I buy used brass from a guy in Peru, Indiana. He has had a business since 1965 of reloading pistol rounds. I get them already cleaned and debulged (sp?) for four cents apiece. I still inspect each case and have never had a bad one. The brass length is .845 to .850. This is my procedure for reloading 40 S&W:

1. Inspect
2. Size/deprime
3. Flair
4. Hand prime
5. Charge with 4.2g Titegroup
6. Seat bullet
7. Crimp
8. Inspect with L.E. Wilson gauge

I am using a four piece Lee die set that includes a factory crimp die.

You guys are great. I don't think there is a problem. They all fit perfectly in my Glock barrel! I am now concerned about too much crimp. To set my crimp I dial the adjustment knob until the round fits into the gauge. No more gauge for me because I'll use the barrel from my Glock. I use a Wolf barrel so I can shoot reloads. I wasted 20+ dollars on the Wilson. Bummer.

 

[bulletsmith]

Sounds like you have it figured out. For me, I tend to crimp just enough to remove the bell. In general, ammo for automatics does not receive the type of crimp a .357 might. The brass should appear to simply lay flat against the bullet. That's been my experience anyway.

 

[straight-shooter]

I had a similar problem with about 20% of my 30-06 brass not passing the Wilson case gauge test. What it turned out being is the rim on the case was very slightly oversize in diameter thus not allowing it to fit in the Wilson case gauge. I found this out by flipping over the piece of brass and trying to insert it and found it wouldn't fit. I then used a fine file and lightly filed the rim and Presto! it fit.

Nicked or bent case rims will also cause it not to fit the gauge. So basically in my case the Wilson gauge is still worth having and the brass is just out of spec. Hey, that's what the gauge is for because without it I wouldn't have known the problem.

 

[Broom_jm]

I reload for 20+ rounds, standardized and wildcat; rifle, pistol; rounds that headspace on the mouth and others that headspace on the shoulder, rim or belt.

I've never owned a case gauge and can't for the life of me figure out why I would need one. What do I care if it fits a gauge when the only thing I really need them to fit in is the chamber of my gun?

 

[straight-shooter]

Convenience broom_jm.

I can just reach over my press and pick a gage up off of my shelf vs going upstairs to tear apart one of my guns. I don't know about you but I don't keep barrels on my bench. Bottom line is if it fits the gage it will fit all of my pistols and rifles. Once I acquired all the reloading toys I felt that I needed I ponied up and bought the gages. They weren't the first thing in line to buy when I started reloading but their nice to own.

 

[bulletsmith]

Convenience broom_jm.

I can just reach over my press and pick a gage up off of my shelf vs going upstairs to tear apart one of my guns. I don't know about you but I don't keep barrels on my bench. Bottom line is if it fits the gage it will fit all of my pistols and rifles. Once I acquired all the reloading toys I felt that I needed I ponied up and bought the gages. They weren't the first thing in line to buy when I started reloading but their nice to own.

This ^^ It can also be helpful for problem solving.

 

[Broom_jm]

Well, in 25 years of reloading, for just about everything you can think of (including 4 different 9mm pistols/carbines) I haven't needed one yet. If there is some kind of problem a case gauge helps you solve, I guess I haven't run across it yet.

For pistol loads, I make rounds that chamber cleanly and cycle the action. Since I'm F/L sizing the case every time, there is no need for a case length gauge.

For rifle loads, I actually DO bring the action out to the loading bench while setting my resizing die, so I know how much is "enough".

What it boils down to is this: When you know what you're doing, the case gauges don't give you any meaningful information that you don't already get from the only "gauge" that matters. I guess if you're running into problems or are confused about how to check headspace using your firearm, maybe the gauge will keep you safe by overworking your brass. What I'm doing works perfectly for my needs, so I'll let ya'll fuss around with the gauges.

 

[17 squirrel]

When the case gauge shines is when you have multiple firearms in the same caliber that have different style actions. A gauge will allow you to reliably use the same ammo in your auto loader and pump action rifle.
Along with your brothers lever action in the same caliber.

And depending on what company's gauge you have a a quick look through a side window in the gauge will tell you this case needs the shoulder pushed back, or a small base die needs to be used, or it needs to be trimmed because the case fits the gauge fine but the neck is too long.
And a few other things very quickly. Myself, I'm at the other end on why would someone want to reload without a case gauge.
I don't need to bring a firearm to my loading bench to see if a round chambers or if a shoulder is pushed back far enough.

 

[ckcollins2003]

When the case gauge shines is when you have multiple firearms in the same caliber that have different style actions. A gauge will allow you to reliably use the same ammo in your auto loader and pump action rifle.
Along with your brothers lever action in the same caliber.

And depending on what company's gauge you have a a quick look through a side window in the gauge will tell you this case needs the shoulder pushed back, or a small base die needs to be used, or it needs to be trimmed because the case fits the gauge fine but the neck is too long.
And a few other things very quickly. Myself, I'm at the other end on why would someone want to reload without a case gauge.
I don't need to bring a firearm to my loading bench to see if a round chambers or if a shoulder is pushed back far enough.

It's actually not the gauge that allows you to use the ammo in 2 different guns though. If you are making ammo for 2 different firearms, a full length resize is required, whether you have a gauge or not. The gauge is simply a little tube that says, "yeah, this is up to SAAMI spec"... it doesn't actually "allow" you to do anything. The dies and reloading process is what allows you to use those cartridges in more than 1 firearm.

As for why you don't need to bring a firearm to your loading bench to get the best possible load for it, it's because you aren't looking for the accuracy that he is. You are going for run of the mill ammo while he is building the best possible ammo for his particular rifle.

Different strokes for different folks... but really all a case gauge does is say hey, this will probably fit in your gun... there have been instances where some firearms chambers are tighter than SAAMI spec's and people have had troubles because they went off of the gauge rather than their precision built firearm.

 

[XtremeVel]

The OP is loading .40 S&W through a Glock. He has also stated he is loading brass he bought and probably doesn't know the history of it's prior use. Having a aftermarket barrel that will be much tighter than his factory also throws another variable into this.

A properly adjusted sizing die isn't good enough on brass that has been shot through some of the older Glock barrels. The FCD die won't help either unless he sends the case through the die if it's been "Glocked" badly enough.

The OP's case is a good example for the value of a gage. If all he had was the factory barrel and loaded his favorite load over the winter using his over sized chamber as the gage, he'd kick himself in the ass later if he added another platform in the same caliber.

I know most say a gage isn't needed, and in the vast majority of cases I would agree. I loaded over 20 years before I bought my first. I bought my first after loading quite a few of the same caliber, also through a Glock and started adding other platforms and aftermarket barrels. I found out quickly I had a bunch of ammo I could only fire in my G22 / G35 and only with the factory barrels. A gage in no way should replace using your actual chamber, but for just $15.00, it does provide a great "standard" that can save a PITA situation later, should you decide to add another platform / barrels.