17 Squirrel - Tell me more.

[bulletsmith]

I was just reading another thread where 17 Squirrel was talking about his love for that particular cartridge (I now understand where his name came from). The idea of a .17 is something I have been kicking around lately, though I have never heard of this variant.

I went looking online but didn't really find a lot of info, other than one article on how to form the cartridge from a .22 Hornet casing.

My questions are largely about where is brass available, or do you have to shape your own?

Are there factory rifles available? or are we talking about special after market barrels?

Any other insight on getting started with this caliber

 

[17 squirrel]

Ok... Here's a start. Contender barrels are available from Bullberry.
My rifle is from Cooper of Montana, Montana Varminter.
A man named Todd Kindler has a business in Ohio and he sells formed brass. Another member here has ordered squirrel brass from Todd, hopefully he will chime in. He also sells other nessessitys for forming and or shooting 17 Squirrel and other wildcats. This is a link to Todds shop.
http://www.woodchuckden.com/VarTarg.aspx

The parent case is 22 Hornet. Myself I have Redding form dies and loading dies for 17 Squirrel.
Bullberry also sells a forming die that can form a few different calibers.
It ends up being a Hornet case cut down necked to 17 cal and the shoulders get blown out. As far as forming cases its really not that big of a deal to make.
It ends up a little longer than 22lr round.
.that's the highlights,, if I missed something please ask away.
If I get time tomorrow I will post some pics.

 

[17 squirrel]

http://www.saubier.com/smallcaliber/17squirrel.pdf

I see now you have already read this article. Do you reload now.

 

[bulletsmith]

http://www.saubier.com/smallcaliber/17squirrel.pdf

I see now you have already read this article. Do you reload now.

I do reload now. Though I just recently started loading .308 for precision and .223 for bulk, I have been reloading handgun for the past 30 years or so.

I love the idea of forming my own, but may choose to purchase some to get started. Going to start looking for a rifle first. I'll take a look through your info at lunch, thanks!

 

[ruger1800]

If you really want to fry your brain James Calhoon Fine Shootin' Bullets Main Page

 

[jamesb]

Probably the easiest way to get into a 17 squirrel rifle is to build one on a contender or have another rifle re-barreled/re-chambered for it. I go the encore and contender route because I already have frames and when I get bored with a caliber it is easy to get a new one or trade for something else. As 17 Squirrel said, Todd Kindler is the expert on the 17 wildcats, I highly recommend his book, the Sensational Seventeens, be-warned 17's are addictive, so are wildcats. I have the redding full length sizing and seating squirrel dies. I also have the bullberry double ended 22-20/20-17 form die. I have met and talked with 17 Squirrel and if I was getting form dies I would get the redding form dies like his, makes trimming the brass down easier but I am going to work with what I got. With the 17 squirrel barrel I received a bag of 100 of the woodchuck dens 17 squirrel formed cases. I called the woodchuck den and talked with Todd, the brass is mechanically formed, he recommends annealing it before fire forming it. Hopefully I will get to annealing them this weekend so I can fireform them soon. I will post pictures to show how they turned out. When I started the quest to shoot this round I was not planning on buying formed brass, I was going to make my own. The article on Saubeir was what got me interested in the 17 squirrel. It fit the bill for an easy 17 cal wildcat to start with. I also have 17 Ackley Hornet that I will be making brass from scratch for also. Since I have the formed 17 squirrel brass the 17AH will be the first I make with my forming dies.

 

[throttletony]

just a suggestion, check out the 17 Hornday Hornet --- a production cartridge that should give you what you want (based off of the 22 Hornet with a modified shoulder)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHDDIbA1bNA

It's at least an option if you're considering something in .17
CZ makes some great rifles in this cal
Savage also has a few offerings

 

[17 squirrel]

If you really want to fry your brain James Calhoon Fine Shootin' Bullets Main Page

I have a Cooper in 19 Calhoon I bought for my son.. I'm thinking about
having a 19 badger built with a 700 action I have. I showed it off the jamesb a few weeks ago and he pointed out some flaws in that the receiver was all scratched up.. I was embarrassed. THANKS JIM FOR POINTING THAT OUT.

 

[17 squirrel]

I do reload now. Though I just recently started loading .308 for precision and .223 for bulk, I have been reloading handgun for the past 30 years or so.

I love the idea of forming my own, but may choose to purchase some to get started. Going to start looking for a rifle first. I'll take a look through your info at lunch, thanks!

Another fun 17 is the 17 Heebee.... It's a 218 Bee case necked down and the shoulders blown out.
Thanks Jim for jumping in... The next time we see each other I would love to get a pic or two of Todds new book and see the differences from #1 to #2

 

[bulletsmith]

I do have my contender in a 35 rem. I may choose to buy a barrel for that frame to start down this road. Mainly because I don't find anything that is ready to shoot. It would appear that for the 17Squirrel you have to build the rifle as well as the cartridge. Which is fun too. The 17 has been appealing to me since it first showed up, I just don't want a rim fire. And you got to admit that the Squirrel is a pretty damn cool looking round.

I also stumbled across this site matchGradeMachine.com. This whole wildcat world presents a serious problem. It seems that I'm on a quest to have one of everything, now everything just got a whole lot bigger. Right now this 17 squirrel is speaking to me.

If you really want to fry your brain James Calhoon Fine Shootin' Bullets Main Page

I read a little about the 19 cal. There seems to be some chatter about a 20 caliber becoming popular as well.

 

[jamesb]

Your welcome Squirrel, I tried to get a dealer to give me a discount at the last 1500 on a shotgun with the frame all scratched up like yours, no dice. I looked at the 17HH, it is basically the same as the 17AH, just a different shoulder angle and body taper. Up until the hornady hornet came out the ackly hornet was just called the hornet. The first runs of the 17HH had issues with the primer pockets being to big so a lot of people were still making the brass from 22 hornet brass. I believe the current run of brass has fixed the issue. I went the 17AH route because I did not plan on shooting factory ammo and there were a lot of the 17AH stuff for sale. Also you can get about 200 more fps out of it.
The 17 velociraptor has been calling my name lately.

 

[jamesb]

Did the annealing Saturday night, worked out well, I think, using the woodchuck's den annealing tip and a pan of water. Did not take to long. Hopefully this weekend I can get some loaded up to fireform, then we will see how I did annealing. Have to wait for midway to ship me a shell holder, apparently I do not have one that will fit the 22 hornet family.

 

[bulletsmith]

Did the annealing Saturday night, worked out well, I think, using the woodchuck's den annealing tip and a pan of water. Did not take to long. Hopefully this weekend I can get some loaded up to fireform, then we will see how I did annealing. Have to wait for midway to ship me a shell holder, apparently I do not have one that will fit the 22 hornet family.

How do you determine when the brass is hot enough? Did you use color? Or one of the indicator paints?

I assume you used the water for quenching? Doesn't that make the metal more brittle?

 

[17 squirrel]

How do you determine when the brass is hot enough? Did you use color? Or one of the indicator paints?

I assume you used the water for quenching? Doesn't that make the metal more brittle?

Brittle ? No, The annealing process stops as soon as you remove the heat with brass. It can be cooled by quenching or air cooled, it makes no difference. Getting the metal to the proper temperature is the important part.
On my machine it just drops in a box on the table. Some guys drop it into water.
There is a few different ways to hit the optimum temp for annealing brass, when I set up my machine I use Temple sticks. It's like a paint stick that is available in many different temperatures, when you get the temp to the range of the paint on the brass it melts. That is what works for me.

 

[17 squirrel]

I do have my contender in a 35 rem. I may choose to buy a barrel for that frame to start down this road. Mainly because I don't find anything that is ready to shoot. It would appear that for the 17Squirrel you have to build the rifle as well as the cartridge. Which is fun too. The 17 has been appealing to me since it first showed up, I just don't want a rim fire. And you got to admit that the Squirrel is a pretty damn cool looking round.

I also stumbled across this site matchGradeMachine.com. This whole wildcat world presents a serious problem. It seems that I'm on a quest to have one of everything, now everything just got a whole lot bigger. Right now this 17 squirrel is speaking to me.



I read a little about the 19 cal. There seems to be some chatter about a 20 caliber becoming popular as well.

The only company that I know that builds Squirrels regularly is Cooper of Montana. There are stocking dealers in almost every state. I'm sure there are a few 17 squirrels out there for sale. The tough part is base price on a Cooper now is about 2 grand and up.. You see them on Gunbroker also.
A barrel from Bullberry is much more reasonably priced.

 

[jamesb]

I kinda guessed to determine if the brass was hot enough. The instructions that came with the tip said to hold it just below the shoulder for 15 seconds and then move up slowly. One reference said to heat for 8 seconds. Todd at the woodchuck den said to heat until I could just see a color change. I tried all three, including one case I tried to over anneal to see what would happen. I have some that have a deep color change, some a slight change and some that show no discernible change. I only did 50 so I guess I will see how they fireform and then do the other 50.

 

[17 squirrel]

Hi Jim, 8 seconds sounds like a long time with those little cases. But I guess it depends on how much heat is being applied.
You might want to try heating up a few in a dark room, it makes it easier to see the color change and that might give you a answer on how much time it takes.

 

[Nevernoluck2]

MGM does chamber for the 17 squirrel, its a little cheaper option for the contender.

 

[17 squirrel]

Does anyone have anything from MGM ?

 

[bulletsmith]

Good question. I was liking their prices.