.223 match reloading

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  • jhart

    Plinker
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Mar 17, 2010
    73
    8
    greenwood
    So I have been looking into shooting matches at Atterburry this year and have the Ar pretty well dialed in on 55gr ammo. Currently loading 55 grain fmj bt hornady over ram tac powder. I'm gonna start loading 68 grain hornady for matches this year. And I'm trying to develop a load for the matches. The rifle has Red River arms 18" stainless match barrel, wylde chamber 1-8 twist. Main thing I don't know is what powder I should use as I have only ever used imr4895 and ramtac. I'm really more worried about consistent fps and less worried about over all velocity. I've heard varget is a good choice but not sure what I should try or if the ram tac will be fine.

    Also on a side note, If any one reading this is a member of hoosier hills, pm me please I need info on how to join the club.
     

    sloughfoot

    Grandmaster
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    26   0   0
    Apr 17, 2008
    7,153
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    Huntertown, IN
    For 200 or 300 yards, 24.5 grains of any suitable powder under your 68 grain bullets will work just fine as you establish your zeros. For 600 yards use one grain less under a 80 grain bullet. Go out and learn. Welcome to the highpower world.

    Until you learn the game and can hold hard, it doesn't really matter much what powder or load you use as long as it is safe. You won't shoot clean until you learn to shoot clean.

    Shoot a match or two and what I say will make sense.
     
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    dhamby

    Sharpshooter
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    7   0   0
    May 1, 2013
    656
    18
    Crawfordsville area
    I would recommend trying something in the 70-80gr range for your projectile instead of the 68gr. I recently picked up some 73gr eldm projectiles and will be working a loaf up for them with H4895 (same burn rate as imr4895).
     

    dennymac

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 21, 2009
    64
    8
    La Grange, KY
    Load 77 grain Sierras or Noslers and load to magazine length. 24 grains of IMR 4895 is capable of winning the match. Concentrate on your position and offhand. Everything else gets better with offhand practice. The guys at CIHPRS are fine folks. They will treat you well. You are also welcome to come down to Southern Indiana RIfle & Pistol CLub. Southern Indiana Rifle and Pistol Club ? 17906 State Road 60, Borden, Indiana 47106 We shoot the CMP Vintage matches as well as the NRA High Power RIfle matches. Drop by any time, or contact me. Best of luck, and have a great day.
     

    natdscott

    User Unknown
    Trainer Supporter
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    Jul 20, 2015
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    The 69 Sierra is a better bullet. If there's no other reason behind your choice of the Hornady 68 than "just because"....go with the Green box stuff instead. It wins more often.

    Incidentally, the 69 SMK still holds my X-count record at 300 Sim of 12X, even in light of a lot of really good bullets (73 Berger, 77 Sierra, 80 Sierra, 82 Berger) being sent from that yardline.

    There's been some good advice here. If you can afford to run them, any of the Nosler/Sierra/Berger/Lapua 77 BTHP bullets perform basically identically to one another. They are a much more capable bullet in the wind, and are very much a 600 yard bullet.

    If I were you, I'd shoot all of my 55 ammo and buy/load no more of it.

    If I had a bunch of Hornady 68 bullets on hand already, I'd load them and shoot them all. TAC will work, as would 4895. That said, Varget or AA2520 are better, and Varget is far and away the favorite for that bullet weight range, at least among "thinking" shooters. But probably not worth switching powders unless you are loading thousands.

    When you go over 65 grains, the scale starts really tipping more to the Varget-to-Reloder 15 range of burn rates and densities. There are probably 15 powders in common use, but Reloder 15 and Varget are well in the lead as the #1 and #2 powders used in NRA SR Competition, in that order. For full course shooting, RE15 is a shade better for 77s and particularly 80s, and it is a lot cleaner powder.

    For magazine loadings, stay away from the VLD, ELD, AMAX, et al. pointy bullets for the time being. They CAN be made to shoot well out of the magazine (aided greatly by a chamber shortened for such), but they are more touchy and do not tolerate jump nearly so well as a tangent ogive BTHP like we've been discussing.

    That's actually the same theory behind my dislike for the H68. It doesn't shoot as well, as consistently, as the Sierra. If you look at it kinda careful-like, you can see why...it's sortof a secant ogive. Secant doesn't self-align as well, and does NOT tolerate lands being eroded asymmetrically, which is unfortunately sometimes the case. Dunno. I just never saw it get close to the 69, so I stopped caring, or trying.

    Sloughfoot and Denny particularly spoke truth when they said that you just need to shoot more, but by the sound of it, you have spent some time at Atterbury?

    There is not specific need to make up a single-fed 80 grain load for 5/600. That said, if you get serious, you may find you want to. Will I kick your butt with your 77s, all else equal, with my single-fed 80 Loads? Absolutely. But it won't be by TENS of points. Even so, better is still better.

    Also. No magazine load has ever...

    EVER.

    ...equaled the groups of my slow fire LR ammo. (But a hint is that the 77s, while very slick, are still behind the 69 and 73...)


    Last thing: don't let anybody convince you to load 3 loads. TWO loads is arguably more than needed to win most club matches. But the idea that you need a light-weight fast load to shoot good scores in Offhand is absolutely false, and was made an awful lot further incorrect by the AR15.

    What you need to do is hold th' damn gun still and focus on the front sight.

    -Nate
     
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    jhart

    Plinker
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Mar 17, 2010
    73
    8
    greenwood
    Thanks for all the reply's

    To answer a few question, I have shot the course of fire before several time but not since my military days, so not with in last 15 yrs, and not a bullseye style mach it was just measueard hit or miss on man size target. This will be a different game and require different approach.

    So the reason for the 55 grain is one cost savings while working on just getting consistent tight groups. No real need to throw high price when just working on getting groups tight. (if I'm wrong please tell me). But that was my thought process.

    As for choosing the 68 grain Hornaday or 69 Sierra. I have a box of both I was gonna try and see which one would hold better groups in my rifle. But for this year will be a year of learning the ropes I hope to be competitive but not my main goal really it's my love for and missing shooting long range. So with that and wanting to keep it simple (ie.) load everything mag length. I was looking at the lighter grain h-68, s-69. I was under the assumption that the larger ones would be incapable of magazine load. Also I wanted to keep my range card simple to calculate and figured a consistent load one yardage to another would be easier and more simplified. Especially since I will be using a scope on my ar with a ballistic calculator to figure dope for the yardages. Cause as of this point I have been unable to shoot beyond 100 yards. Trying to find a range I can join to be able to get at least a 200 yrd zero. So Dennymac thanks for the offer if you want drop me a pm I would be more than happy to come out and shoot a day with you and pick your brain on how this how competition thing works. Or any one else for that fact Im always willing to shoot and learn.
     

    dhamby

    Sharpshooter
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    7   0   0
    May 1, 2013
    656
    18
    Crawfordsville area
    There are some 70gr + projectiles you can still load to be magazine fed, the 73gr eldm I mentioned were designed for that. You can also load the 75gr hpbt, 77gr smk, and the new 70gr RDF to fit in a magazine.
     

    natdscott

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    Jul 20, 2015
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    Hamby, if you don't mind my asking, why the fascination with the ELDM?

    -Nate
     

    dhamby

    Sharpshooter
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    7   0   0
    May 1, 2013
    656
    18
    Crawfordsville area
    So far they seem to be working well and the BC is higher than those that have been available in the past that can he loaded to still fit into an AR mag.
     

    sloughfoot

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    26   0   0
    Apr 17, 2008
    7,153
    83
    Huntertown, IN
    Thanks for all the reply's

    To answer a few question, I have shot the course of fire before several time but not since my military days, so not with in last 15 yrs, and not a bullseye style mach it was just measueard hit or miss on man size target. This will be a different game and require different approach.

    So the reason for the 55 grain is one cost savings while working on just getting consistent tight groups. No real need to throw high price when just working on getting groups tight. (if I'm wrong please tell me). But that was my thought process.

    As for choosing the 68 grain Hornaday or 69 Sierra. I have a box of both I was gonna try and see which one would hold better groups in my rifle. But for this year will be a year of learning the ropes I hope to be competitive but not my main goal really it's my love for and missing shooting long range. So with that and wanting to keep it simple (ie.) load everything mag length. I was looking at the lighter grain h-68, s-69. I was under the assumption that the larger ones would be incapable of magazine load. Also I wanted to keep my range card simple to calculate and figured a consistent load one yardage to another would be easier and more simplified. Especially since I will be using a scope on my ar with a ballistic calculator to figure dope for the yardages. Cause as of this point I have been unable to shoot beyond 100 yards. Trying to find a range I can join to be able to get at least a 200 yrd zero. So Dennymac thanks for the offer if you want drop me a pm I would be more than happy to come out and shoot a day with you and pick your brain on how this how competition thing works. Or any one else for that fact Im always willing to shoot and learn.

    Using 55 FMJBT bullets to get consistent tight groups is a frustrating and fruitless endeavor. If you want to progress in the sport, 100% use of match ammo takes the ammo out of the equation when learning how to shoot small groups from position. Your match rifle deserves good ammo.
     

    Sniper 79

    Master
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    19   0   0
    Oct 7, 2012
    2,939
    48
    I also had better luck with the Sierra 69grn Match King pills out of my rifle. I loaded them with Win 748.
     

    Leo

    Grandmaster
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    30   0   0
    Mar 3, 2011
    9,733
    113
    Lafayette, IN
    Using 55 FMJBT bullets to get consistent tight groups is a frustrating and fruitless endeavor. If you want to progress in the sport, 100% use of match ammo takes the ammo out of the equation when learning how to shoot small groups from position. Your match rifle deserves good ammo.

    +1

    The bullet selection needs to match the job requirement. You will never learn to shoot well if each shot you have to wonder if it was your mistake or ammo weakness.

    I have make record scores with 52 grain MatchKings at 100 yard reduced courses, but never got good scores with 55 gr FMJ. They are combat bullets designed for other purposes. Even the 52 gr Sierras that have made several 200 clean/high X score at the 600 reduced target on a 100 yard range start to fail by 200 yards, by 300 you are just making noise, not a score.

    Unlike some above, I did have some great results with the Hornady 68, it equaled the performance of the 69 Sierra, which is outstanding. A variable may be the barrel. If I bought a new barrel blank, had it machined and chambered, ad it didn't shoot to my liking, I would unscrew it and buy another. A top barrel and a top bullet together is a beautiful thing. When I was seriously competing, I never had a marginal barrel at a match.

    To simplify life, I started using just one ammo, the 77 gr Sierra in sitting on a compressed load of Varget. 200 yard, 300 yard, 600 yard, same bullet, same load. I even ordered bullets a couple thousand at a time with to get the same production lot. I never felt like I lost a point due to that bullet.

    I have not been to the Highpower matches at Camp Atterberry for years, but it was always a good group, lots of great memories. If you carried yourself decently, you got treated very well.

    Good Luck and have fun.
     
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    Hop

    Grandmaster
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    16   0   0
    Jan 21, 2008
    5,084
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    Indy
    So what size groups does it take to be middle of the pack or near the top?
     

    sloughfoot

    Grandmaster
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    26   0   0
    Apr 17, 2008
    7,153
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    Huntertown, IN
    Me too Leo. How about we wobble down there for an old timers match this year?

    Lynn Richter has been state champ like 7 or 8 times. He is well into his 70's and he uses 69 Sierras under Win 748 for 200. He has used this for as long as I have known him.

    During that period when Sierra bullets was having consistency problems, the Hornady 68 filled in very well. It is certainly capable of clean scores. It is a very good bullet, even though the design is slightly different from the Sierra.
     

    sloughfoot

    Grandmaster
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    26   0   0
    Apr 17, 2008
    7,153
    83
    Huntertown, IN
    So what size groups does it take to be middle of the pack or near the top?

    Middle... High 90's

    top.... clean with high X-count

    But you will only be shooting against others in your class. Sharpshooter, Expert, Master, High Master. And winning or placing high in your class is immensely satisfying. And that money spends as easily as match winner money.
     
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    Leo

    Grandmaster
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    30   0   0
    Mar 3, 2011
    9,733
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    Lafayette, IN
    yes, unclassified master.

    Don't worry about your finish at the first few matches. Concentrate on Safety, following commands, doing things right, Safety, your responsibilities for other shooters, your technique, Safety. Getting all the shots on target in the time periods allowed is a high enough goal for the first match. If they are in the scoring rings, that is great.
     
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