Need help with crimp, anybody got a minute?

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  • BlueEagle

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    I've been struggling with this for several days now.

    I have no idea how to tell if I have any crimp, too much crimp, just enough crimp, etc. I've read the whole "if you can push the bullet deeper in the case by pushing it against the side of the bench, it's too light" advice from multiple places, but that doesn't help me, because I can push pretty damn hard.

    I'm attaching a picture with three different reloaded cartridges in it, with what I think is three different levels of crimp. I need somebody to say "1 and 2 aren't enough, 3 is too much" so that I have a few visual points of comparison to know how far to go.

    For information, I'm running Lee .38 special dies on a Lee Classic Turret press. So far, I've taken the advancing rod out and been running it in single stage mode. And my die set is the 4 die set, so I'm seating the bullet in one step, and then crimping with the factory crimp die in the next step.

    20170216_185912.jpg

    Thanks in advance to anybody who can help.
     

    Fullmag

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    The one in the middle looks good, maybe some where between the middle and left but definately not the one on the left. 38 special headspaces from the mouth of the case so crimp and case length are important.

    The crimp should measure .003 to .005 less than body of the case with bullet in the case according to RCBS. From what I can tell your OAL appears quite long also.
     

    BlueEagle

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    I figured the one on the right was a drastic over-crimp, but obviously I needed verification. So the one in the middle looks closest; that's good to know. .

    The OAL comes out to 1.5285, which is between the minimum 1.455 and the maximum 1.550 listed in "Modern Reloading," 2nd edition. Checking the Hornady manual, it shows to be in-spec as far as COL there as well. Maybe it's just the angle of the picture?
     

    BlueEagle

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    So the groove is supposed to be back in the case neck? That would be good to know. I was just going by the OAL recommendations in the manual.

    This is quite literally the first few rounds I've ever reloaded, so no information is "too basic" to be mentioned! lol
     

    romack991

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    For a revolver, I'd just take the flair off and make sure if drops into the cylinder. So flair closer to the one on the left. For an auto loader, I remove the flair and crimp .001 to .002". Probably between the left and the center.

    I usually take a straight edge and put it against the case and hold it up to light. Gives a good confirmation that the flair is gone and just a slight taper at the edge.
     

    romack991

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    So the groove is supposed to be back in the case neck? That would be good to know. I was just going by the OAL recommendations in the manual.

    This is quite literally the first few rounds I've ever reloaded, so no information is "too basic" to be mentioned! lol

    Yes, that groove is the cannelure. It's there to provide a place to crimp and not distort the bullet. However you don't have to crimp there depending on the reloaders desired OAL.
     

    jamesb

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    "38 special headspaces from the [STRIKE]mouth[/STRIKE] RIM of the case so crimp and case length are important Just not as important as in a rimless cartridge."

    Most rimmed cartridges headspace from the rim. All my 38s, 357s, and 45 colts do. When I set up to load 38s for my revolvers, I use lee dies, I use the same set up you are using, seater die then factory crimp die. The bullet you are using has a crimp groove, normally that is where you would crimp it. To set up your dies take an empty case, size it, flare it and then put a bullet in by hand until the case mouth is at the crimp grove. Measure your OAL, if it is within standard set up your seating die to seat the bullet at that depth. Use the bullet you just made to set up the crimp die. The crimp in your middle bullet in the picture looks good. You want just enough crimp so the lip of the case has a small curl into the crimp groove, barely noticeable when using brass jacketed bullets. Too much crimp and you can score or cut the jacket. Here is a picture of the crimp I use on the 38s I load, it is using a lead bullet but since you are using a bullet with a groove it should look similar.


    You want just enough crimp to stop the bullets in the unfired cylinders from working there way out of the case. Also a tip, once you have it set up how you like it make a dummy round with no powder or primer to use to set up your dies next time you reload, if using the same components.
    Jim
     

    sloughfoot

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    If you are going to crimp with the FCD, use the one on the right but in the crimp groove. You cannot overcrimp. The one on the right will provide consistant starting pressures. It is what I use on all my .357 Magnum ammo with Win 296 for reliable combustion.

    Do not be afraid to crimp with the Lee FCD. The best product they ever came up with.
     

    oldpink

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    Either the one in the middle or the one on the right, although my preference would actually be with the one on the right, but please do yourself a big favor and crimp into the cannelure instead of against the bullet.
    FWIW, it is possible to overcimp in certain situations, but it's nearly impossible to have that problem with the superb Lee Factory Crimp die.
     

    Sniper 79

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    38 needs a roll crimp in the base of the canneuler so the bullet doesn't move during recoil. I wouldn't mess with FCD on this.

    If you must it's kind of a feel thing. Just kiss it a little without smashing the bullet any.

    My Lee seater die also roll crimps. Crimp last in a separate operation. Don't seat and crimp at the same time.
     

    mac45

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    Kinda looks like you're seating .38 Special to .357 OAL.
    Double check your OAL
    The cannelure should be even w/ the case mouth.
    .38's don't need a whole lot of crimp. The one in the middle would be fine.
    Full house .357's want a heavy crimp like the one on the right.
    The object, (as stated above), is to prevent your revolver from becoming an inertial bullet puller and locking up the cylinder.
    Pull those, no harm done, and start over.
    While you're at it.....do be sure you're not using a .357 Magnum load in a .38 Special case.
    That has the potential to be a "Bad Thing"
     

    BlueEagle

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    Thank you all for the info. I'll be pulling these tonight or tomorrow and starting fresh, using the information you've all given me.

    And yes Mac, they are 38 special loads. 4.3 grains of HP38, they're just on the long side of the OAL spectrum because I wasn't using the cannelure, I was just making sure that they fit within the OAL spec.
     

    Leadeye

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    Any particular reason you want the bullet seated that far out? Like oldpink, I think the crimp belongs in the bullet cannelure.
     

    mac45

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    Blue Eagle
    Missed your second post last night where you talked about the OAL....my bad.
    Here's the thing......and one of the reasons I detest Lee's manual, they make it sound like you have this huge tolerance to seat your bullet.
    Nope.
    The Max OAL they list is from SAAMI, (the guys that publish specs on all the ammo in the US).
    That's the max length for ANY bullet. They publish that number because anything longer may extend out of the cylinder of a revolver.
    Hollow points need to be seated deeper than Round Nose, and SWC's are generally somewhere in between.

    So what Lee is calling "MIN" is actually where you should be seating it.
    Look at the Hornady Manual.....it lists the COL as 1.450" (guessing 125 XTP)
    That's not a Min, (tho I see why you would thing so after reading Lee's), that's where you want to seat to.

    As a practical matter.....you won't get 'em all to exactly the same OAL. There's too much variation in the bullets themselves.
    I'm generally happy if I keep 'em +/- .005"
     

    billybob44

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    For MOST handgun loads..

    If the projectile has a canna lure or crimp groove, then seat to the upper section of that "Ring"..
    Most revolver style projectiles will have this ring of some sort.
    Pistol (Semi-auto) projectiles not so much..
    For the most part, Revolver loads take a "Roll" crimp.-Rule of thumb, the more powerful the load, the heavier the crimp.
    Most Pistol loads take a "Taper" crimp- Rule of thumb, just enough to remove the "Bell" from the expander die.

    IMO, your projectiles should be seated deeper (To top edge of canna Lure) and your center load in the pic is about right

    Hope this helps...Bill
     

    coltfan

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    None of the 3 pictures are correct. First thing to prepare before any crimp is to assure all cases are trimmed to the same length. If they are not the same length, there will be a different crimp applied to each of the different lengths because some will go farther into the die since they are longer. others will not go as deep since they are shorter. Hence, some will be over crimped and others under crimped and some just right. Forget the OAL, if you are using standard cases and the proper bullet for the cartridge, OAL will automatically be set by seating to mid cannelure (groove) on the jacketed bullet shown. I would recommend a separate seating and crimping operation. First, raise the ram with a case in the shell ho;der with seating die backed way out. Make sure seating stem is backed way out as well. screw die into press til you feel it touch the case mouth, the back it out 1/4 to 1/2 turn and tighten lock ring. lower the ram and set a bullet on the case, raise ram and adjust the seating screw until the case mouth is just about midway in the bullet groove. Will require raising and lowering several times to get it to correct point before tightening it down. Now, seat all of your bullets, then raise the seating stem at least a full turn or more. Now unlock die, place a case with seated bullet in shell holder and raise the ram. screw die into press til you feel the case, then screw in 1/4 turn or less at a time until the case is nicely rolled into the groove. each time you screw the die body in, lower the ram and see if the crimp looks smooth. Now you are ready to start crimping your cases. Can save time if you have a turret press, just buy another seating die and take the stem out and leave it set up for your roll crimp. Lead bullets handled similarly but use the crimping (topmost) groove. Taper crimping where there is no crimp groove is different and requires a specific taper crimp die.
    Your pictures show the bullet seated way too far out, well past the cannelure. Your roll crimp is trying to force the case into the bullet jacket. This distorts the cas and damages the bullet. case may not fit into cylinder since it may be bulged at the attempted crimp point.
     

    noylj

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    You see that thing around the bullets? It is a "cannelure" and it is there so you can roll crimp into the groove. That is where the manufacture expects the bullet to be crimped.
    Please, pull the bullets and see if you have done any damage.
    Crimp is simply NOT that big a deal.
    1) taper crimp: remove the case mouth flare and that is that. You can run a finger down the bullet to the case mouth and feel if the flare is still there as it will catch on your finger. You can look at a SAAMI case drawing and see the case mouth diameter that SAAMI specifies for the industry. The crimp is best applied as a separate operation.
    2) roll crimp: seat the bullet so the case mouth is just below the top of the crimp groove or cannelure—son't use bullets without a crimp groove or cannelure until you have a few years experience and some sort of real need to use such a bullet. Then, in a separate operation. apply a roll crimp so the case mouth is turned in but doesn't touch the bullet (unless you are fire very hot loads in a super magnum). For roll crimps, I can't recommend the Redding Profile Crimp Die enough.

    In all cases, after seating and crimping, drop the round into the barrel/cylinder/case gage to verify that you haven't bulged the case and then pull a bullet and verify that you haven't damaged the bullet. If your cartridge doesn't drop in the barrel, "paint" it with black marker, drop back in barrel, rotate a few time, and the scratches in the marking will tell you where your problem is.
    1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long
    2) scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
    3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
    4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
    5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster for rimless cases.
     

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