Is the Lee "Modern Reloading" book any good?

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • BlueEagle

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Feb 3, 2011
    2,046
    36
    Southern Indiana
    Is the Lee "Modern Reloading" book any good?

    Reason I ask, I'm having more problems with my 38 special loads.

    I posted on here some time ago trying to get my crimp right, and got some assistance from you wonderful guys. I was messing around with it again today.

    Following the Lee manual, I used 4.3gr of HP38 behind a 125gr Hornady XTP.

    The first issue I ran into was, if I set the bullet deep enough to get the majority of the cannelure under the case mouth, it was already well below the minimum cartridge length listed in the manual.

    So in order to get it within the length specs, I had to pull the bullet back out a bit, so only part of the cannelure is in the case mouth. Is that correct? It doesn't seem like it.

    Second issue...I got another squib with this batch. And a few of the ones prior to the squib left some unburnt powder lying around. I know I had enough powder, I checked each case manually after calibrating the auto drum powder measure several times, on a calibrated digital scale.

    While looking into this, I looked in my Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, 9th Edition. They don't have an HP38 load, but they have one for WIn231, which I understand is the same thing.

    Their starting load is 4.8 grains, instead of the Lee starting load of 4.3. And, the Hornady minimum overall length is a tad shorter, which would've helped with the cannelure issue.

    So my question is, is the Lee Book being overly cautious with the powder charge? Should I use the Hornady Win231 recipe instead of the Lee HP38 one? Or am I likely doing something else wrong?

    Picture of three of the remaining rounds from this batch, so you can see the cannelure/overall length issue.

    ryffLBo.jpg
     

    2in1evtime

    Master
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 98.4%
    61   1   0
    Oct 30, 2011
    3,444
    113
    retired-midwest
    Are the rounds with unburned powder even going off,? as to the cannelure i have several loads in pistol and rifle that don't even get close to the cannelure, but they are never past the cannelure either. Are you damaging the primers on installation and or checking the primer holes for blockages??
     

    jzwhts

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    18   0   0
    Aug 13, 2012
    253
    28
    Mooresville
    Are you using the Lee autodisc? They are very easily stuck without you noticing it. This is my experience and I just won't use one anymore. They will make a squib for sure.
     

    red_zr24x4

    UA#190
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Mar 14, 2009
    28,794
    113
    Walkerton
    According to hodgdon's sight -
    [FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT]
    http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol


    plug in your data, cartridge, powder,etc
     

    Leadeye

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Jan 19, 2009
    36,690
    113
    .
    Cartridge OAL has been one of those things that I watch, but it's more of what fits the gun best.
     

    singlesix

    Grandmaster
    Industry Partner
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    May 13, 2008
    7,197
    27
    Indianapolis, In
    Couple of thoughts, are you using the same bullets as what is in the manual? Lee doesn't tend to error on the low side. I used Lee date for my 38sp, 357mag and 9mm without issue.
     

    mac45

    Expert
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Feb 17, 2008
    756
    18
    Blue Eagle, that pic looks OK to me.
    The case mouth just has to be somewhere in the cannelure.
    Really not that big a deal, all the cannelure does is give the crimp something to grab.

    Surprised you got a squib @ 4.3gr, that's Hodgdon' s starting load.
    (Lee doesn't make it's own data....they just copy other folks).
    It's unusual to get a squib from published data.....but it's not unheard of either.

    If it was me, I'd recheck my powder measure to be sure I wasn't getting the occasion light drop.
    Throw 10 charges on the scale. If I didn't get 43.0 gr I'd figure out why.
    If I was positive the powder measure was good, I'd bump it up a couple tenths to 4.5 or 4.6.
    Honestly, you would be fine if you went up to 4.8 as listed in the Hornady, but there's nothing wrong with working up slow.
    (BTW, you're correct. HP-38 is exactly the same as W231)
    Either way, load up a small batch and make sure they work ok.
    Once I got a good reliable load that went bang every time, I'd stick with that for a while till I was comfortable with everything.
    Once you are comfortable with the process, (and that takes how ever long it takes), come back and we can talk about finding the most accurate load with that bullet in YOUR gun.
    No rush.....take your time and have fun.
     

    Broom_jm

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 10, 2009
    3,691
    48
    There is nothing at all wrong with the Lee Modern Reloading book, but if you have a choice on data, always go with the bullet manufacturer. The powder maker or a 3rd party source should also be referenced, if it's available. A smart move is to find two or three sources and average them. If you average out 4.3 and 4.8, you get around 4.5 or 4.6...that would likely preclude any squibs. Best function and accuracy is probably to come at an even higher charge weight.

    Also, if you have to choose between crimping in the proper location on the bullet or having an OAL that is a little shorter than book, crimp the bullet properly.

    The squib load could be caused by other factors, such as using the wrong primer or failing to seat it firmly.
     

    cobber

    Parrot Daddy
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    43   0   0
    Sep 14, 2011
    10,225
    149
    Somewhere over the rainbow
    As far as the book is concerned, the tables seem fine albeit incomplete for all the powders/bullets I load.

    The rest of it reads like an extended advertisement for Lee Precision products and how superior they are to the other guys' stuff. A bit much after a while.
     

    Leo

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Mar 3, 2011
    9,733
    113
    Lafayette, IN
    I am not willing to condemn the Lee Modern reloading book as bad, and can even get past all the verbage that basically says only their products can make good safe ammo. Some of the powder recommendations seem like they are spec'ed to use Lee brand powder dippers, bushings and slides, rather then the best true charge weights off of ballistic data.

    Remember also that usually ballistic test data is on a specific test barrel. Production firearms are not 100% the same.

    As far as over all length in a revolver, crimp at the cannelure. The cylinder, barrel gap and forcing cone area is already in play in the accuracy arena, +/- .060" is not going to change the accuracy. Revolvers are very forgiving. The .38 spl is a really low pressure cartridge and published loading data take into account 100 year old cast iron junkers. With anything close to an average .38 revolver, you have plenty of safety margin.

    Squibs can be attributed to contaminated powder, poor primers, oily contamination in the cartridge case. Some light loads are really sensitive to position. I have seen a very small powder charge will show one velocity over the chronograph if you point the pistol down before each shot and and another set of numbers if you point it up each shot.

    HP-38 usually occupies enough space in the case to not be a problem. My standard load is 4.5 gr under a 125 jacketed hollow point. Hodgdons web site shows the 125 xtp at 4.3 to 4.9 grains of HP-38.

    Good Luck
     
    Last edited:

    throttletony

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    12   0   0
    Jul 11, 2011
    3,630
    38
    nearby
    As others have said, if it's for .38 spl, there's already a lot of wiggle room in OAL without worrying about pressure (esp. in a modern 357 revo)

    Almost ALL of my different loads in .38 are short (even some really hot +p, with bullets weighing from 115-158). Similar to what you have observed. I've preferred to get a bit of the crimp in the cannelure.

    As for the squib, could it be the powder itself - has it been left in crazy temperature swings or in a damp area? My ONLY squib so far was a 38 spl that got zero powder - and apparently the primer alone is insufficient to push a 158 gr pill all the way down the barrel :) Live and learn. I use the Lee Classic Turret and now check with a flashlight (quickly) every round before seating the bullet.

    As for the unburnt powder - I had a similar thing when I was using light loads of IMR ---- (4756? or similar? can't remember powder, out of production now). I found that, almost counterintuitively, by upping the powder a bit AND seating a bit lower + tighter crimp I got a more complete powder burn. I think it needed that extra resistance to get better burn after the initial ignition.

    I'm not a lawyer, take all this with a grain of salt.

    Also, these same rules DO NOT APPLY when talking about 357 magnum where the pressures are more extreme and tolerances are less forgiving.
     

    jhart

    Plinker
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Mar 17, 2010
    73
    8
    greenwood
    Here is my problem with the lee manual and many others. Actually I was getting ready to put a post up this evening on the subject as I have had issues. The lee manual while well written only gives bullet weights and not specific bullets. I had a chance over the weekend to look at my uncles Hornady manual and look up the specific rounds I was using only to find out there values are vastly diffrent from the lee manual and for that fact Hodgon site.

    My specific is I am loading Hornady Match .224 HPBT 68 grain. From everything I could find every one was giving numbers based on 69 grain sierra match King. One grain difference everyone said just use the 69 grain numbers for the 68. I am using varget powder and we all know it's a case filler. The problem is that the 68 grain hornady is .1 inches longer the sierra in 69 grain. So when you try and load to the 69 grain sierra specs you are creating a compressed load at the lower end of what they recommend for the sierra. And you can't even get to the high end with out round damage. Hornady recomend max for the 68 grain is actually what Sierra recomends as there starting load which is 24 grains of varget.

    So I know have the hornady manual on it's way should be here today and to match what others say. I will at the varry least only use data that specifies actually bullet being used. And will relying soley on the hornady and sierra manuals for my actually round loading. Since those are the two main bullets I use.
     

    Broom_jm

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 10, 2009
    3,691
    48
    There are many reasons to use data from the actual bullet manufacturer, if it's available. In addition to variations in length, the bearing surface can be quite different between two bullets of similar or identical weight, and that has a significant impact on pressures. Depending on the rate-of-twist in your barrel, it might stabilize the shorter Sierra 69 grain bullets, but NOT the longer 68gr HPBT from Hornady.

    When you see generic recommendations from books like Lee and Lyman, it is more important than ever to start at the lowest listed charge weight, and to cross-check and average starting charges, if bullet manufacturer data is not available.
     

    Leo

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Mar 3, 2011
    9,733
    113
    Lafayette, IN
    The problem is that the 68 grain hornady is .1 inches longer the sierra in 69 grain. So when you try and load to the 69 grain sierra specs you are creating a compressed load at the lower end of what they recommend for the sierra. And you can't even get to the high end with out round damage. Hornady recomend max for the 68 grain is actually what Sierra recomends as there starting load which is 24 grains of varget.

    So I know have the hornady manual on it's way should be here today and to match what others say. I will at the varry least only use data that specifies actually bullet being used. And will relying soley on the hornady and sierra manuals for my actually round loading. Since those are the two main bullets I use.

    Don't sweat the compressed loads with Varget. ALL my .223 match loads since the late 90's are compressed. That extra .100" of compression is nothing to worry about.
    The 8th edition Hornady manual says the 68 gr BTHP Varget load is 22.7 to 24.9 grains under the section .223 Service rifle loads.

    I do have one Bushmaster CMP match rifle that is a very tight barrel and shows pressure signs at 24.8, so it is a good idea to try a few before loading any bulk numbers.
     

    jhart

    Plinker
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Mar 17, 2010
    73
    8
    greenwood
    Don't sweat the compressed loads with Varget. ALL my .223 match loads since the late 90's are compressed. That extra .100" of compression is nothing to worry about.
    The 8th edition Hornady manual says the 68 gr BTHP Varget load is 22.7 to 24.9 grains under the section .223 Service rifle loads.

    I do have one Bushmaster CMP match rifle that is a very tight barrel and shows pressure signs at 24.8, so it is a good idea to try a few before loading any bulk numbers.

    actually leo it is a worry once you get above the min of sierra load data. with the hornady round you will bulge the case trying to get to oal for mag length. which is how I discovered the problem it is that much of a compressed load. cause your trying to get an extra .1 inches of depth to get same oal. I was also seeing cratering of the primer at 24 grains. the hornady manual actually recommends almost two grains lighter as it's starting load. The lee manual suggest 24-26 grains of powder. and as you stated hornady 22.7-24.9

    Now if your loading to chamber length I can see it being far less of a problem. But all my testing so far and that is limited has shown my barrel does best with at least a .03 jump. So I have been loading everything to mag length.
     
    Last edited:

    jhart

    Plinker
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Mar 17, 2010
    73
    8
    greenwood
    but it's possible some of my issue is brass capacity issue. I weighed a couple cases and then filled with water and re weighed. I am getting about 30 grains filled with water as the avg. Does that sound low or normal the wall thickness of the brass at the neck measures .012.
     

    Leo

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Mar 3, 2011
    9,733
    113
    Lafayette, IN
    I do not know the grains of water value. I know that an empty, clean case will be between 91 and 96 grains. I did a big study on .223/5.56 cases a number of years ago. Mostly to prove that the wives tale of "military cases being thicker and needing a different powder charge" was (and is) plain wrong. I went all the way back to Twin Cities 1972 cases all the way up to present Lake City and multiple Domestic and import commercial cases. There is generally as much or more variance between cases of the same lot than there is between military/commercial brands. They all have the same interior volume. The cases are not the variable that is giving you problems. Definitely trust the Hornady data above the Lee.

    PS. the "thicker military cases" WAS true in WWI and WWII with 30-06 brass, but the legion falsely continues to be applied to the current time. The difference between commercial and Military cases back then was enough you could feel the weight difference just picking cases up off the ground.
     
    Last edited:

    Leo

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Mar 3, 2011
    9,733
    113
    Lafayette, IN
    .....with the hornady round you will bulge the case trying to get to oal for mag length...

    You were bulging cases? I am not saying it cannot happen, just that I have never seen it.

    I have never heard of that before, and I have ran 25 plus grains under a 77 grain bullet in the .223 REM. I have used Varget in Varmint loads were you have to fill the case and hold it against a vibrator to settle it enough to get the rest of the powder in.

    Are you seating the bullet with a full die and a conventional press or using a benchrester type press that only touches the base and bullet? All I have ever used the bench rest loading equipment on was 6mm PPC and 7mm TCU.

    http://harrellsprec.com/index.php/products/harrell-tooling-arbor-press-by-henry-harrell This is the bench rest reloading press I am familiar with.
     
    Last edited:

    jhart

    Plinker
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Mar 17, 2010
    73
    8
    greenwood
    Leo I am using the lee three die set. so it's a full length seater with no crimp. (that is the third die crip). And the bulge isn't much it's about .0005-.001 it is just enough to give resistance on the way out of the seating operation when they usally pull out easily. It was also causing me to have to press hard like I would with the sizing die to get the bullet seated which was also causing some tip damage.

    But I don't wanna hijack the op's post I was manly just wanting to point out as you stated that. I will from now on always inquire the bullet manufacturer for there recommendations, first from now on and really only use the lee manual as a reference.
     

    BlueEagle

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Feb 3, 2011
    2,046
    36
    Southern Indiana
    I did verify my powder throw was throwing the correct charge. And I charged all cases then set them in a loading block, shined a light on them, and scanned back and forth; they all had the same amount of powder in them, as near as I could tell by the naked eye. Obviously that's not concrete, but that combined with the powder throw being accurate by weight before, I'm fairly confident the powder was correct.

    Good to know that I can push them a little further down. I'll try that next time and see if I can get a better seat and crimp, see if that makes a difference.

    I also keep forgetting to think of powder position on these when I'm actually out shooting them. I'll keep an eye on that as well.

    And I'm shooting these in a .357, so I should have lots of safety margin.

    Good info from all, thank you for the help.
     
    Top Bottom