Factory ammo, popping/flat primers

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  • Ericpwp

    Grandmaster
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    18   0   0
    Jan 14, 2011
    6,753
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    NWI
    I was shooting Herters 180gr round nose in my Savage Axis 30-06. Primers were popping and the ones that didn't were flat.
    Here is some old chrono data from this ammo. I don't recall this issue then, but may not have noticed it.
    Created: 09-18-2016 10:43:31 AM
    Description: Herters 180gr 30-06
    Notes 1:
    Notes 2:
    Distance to Chrono (FT): 0.00
    Ballistic Coefficient: 0.240
    Bullet Weight (gr): 180.000
    Altitude (FT): 0.0
    Temp: N/A
    BP: N/A
    Shots
    # FPS FT-LBS PF
    11 2721 2959.68 489.78
    10 2808 3151.97 505.44
    9 2896 3352.63 521.28
    8 2891 3341.06 520.38
    7 2915 3396.76 524.70
    6 2851 3249.24 513.18
    5 2835 3212.88 510.30
    4 2837 3217.41 510.66
    3 2881 3317.99 518.58
    2 2824 3187.99 508.32
    1 2819 3176.71 507.42
    Average: 2843.45
    StdDev: 53.80
    Min: 2721
    Max: 2915
    Spread: 194
    True MV: 2843.45
    Shots/sec: 0.02
    Group Size (IN): 0.00

    What do you say INGO?
     

    AmmoManAaron

    Master
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    37   0   0
    Feb 20, 2015
    3,334
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    I-get-around
    A maximum spread of 194 fps within an 11 shot string is unacceptable - it indicates a severe lack of quality control. The powder charge probably varies by quite a bit. Bottom line is that ammo is unsafe junk and I would contact the manufacturer. With popped and flattened primers, a recall is in order so save your boxes with the lot numbers. How many boxes of this do you have and are the lot numbers the same?
     

    Ericpwp

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    18   0   0
    Jan 14, 2011
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    NWI
    I have a few more boxes of it. I bought them for break-in and for the brass. The the two boxes in question have the same stamp on the inside of the lid.
     

    Ericpwp

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    Jan 14, 2011
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    NWI
    They were deprimed, not pierced. It was not raining, sunny +/- 80 degrees. They were definitely the cheapest brass 30-06 I could find, especially with a coupon.

    I would like to chrono this batch, but I don't think I want to shoot them.
     

    AmmoManAaron

    Master
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    37   0   0
    Feb 20, 2015
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    I-get-around
    They were deprimed, not pierced. It was not raining, sunny +/- 80 degrees. They were definitely the cheapest brass 30-06 I could find, especially with a coupon.

    I would like to chrono this batch, but I don't think I want to shoot them.

    If they are blowing primers clear out of the pocket in a nice new commercial gun like the Savage Axis, it isn't the gun it's the ammo...and it is NOT safe to fire any more of that ammo. Also, the primer pockets in the fired brass may be too stretched to hold a primer for reloading, so be aware of that. Please post the lot # for anyone else who might have some and also contact Herter's and get them to replace the ammo or refund your money. It is my opinion that lot of ammo should be recalled.

    If you can, posting pictures of examples of your brass with the primers flattened or blown out would be good. People need to see how unsafe this lot of ammo is.
     

    TBone3006

    Plinker
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    3   0   0
    Feb 14, 2012
    84
    0
    Lafayette
    Wow!!! 2800-2900 fps with a 180 grainer, thats sounds like an overcharged batch. Check some reloding manuals, Hodgon website has max loads doing 2600-2700fps ranges with only one load hitting 2800 fps. and that is out of a 24 in barrel, I dont know your barrel length, but I bet it is 22 inches. I would not continue shooting these. Blown primer ,Flat primer = HIGH PRESSURE
     

    SSGSAD

    Grandmaster
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    14   0   0
    Dec 22, 2009
    12,404
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    Town of 900 miles
    Wow!!! 2800-2900 fps with a 180 grainer, thats sounds like an overcharged batch. Check some reloding manuals, Hodgon website has max loads doing 2600-2700fps ranges with only one load hitting 2800 fps. and that is out of a 24 in barrel, I dont know your barrel length, but I bet it is 22 inches. I would not continue shooting these. Blown primer ,Flat primer = HIGH PRESSURE

    YES, I was thinking, that 2600-2700 fps, is about max .....
     

    Broom_jm

    Master
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    0   0   0
    Dec 10, 2009
    3,691
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    I was shooting Herters 180gr round nose in my Savage Axis 30-06. Primers were popping and the ones that didn't were flat.
    Here is some old chrono data from this ammo. I don't recall this issue then, but may not have noticed it.
    Created: 09-18-2016 10:43:31 AM
    Description: Herters 180gr 30-06
    Notes 1:
    Notes 2:
    Distance to Chrono (FT): 0.00
    Ballistic Coefficient: 0.240
    Bullet Weight (gr): 180.000
    Altitude (FT): 0.0
    Temp: N/A
    BP: N/A
    Shots
    # FPS FT-LBS PF
    11 2721 2959.68 489.78
    10 2808 3151.97 505.44
    9 2896 3352.63 521.28
    8 2891 3341.06 520.38
    7 2915 3396.76 524.70
    6 2851 3249.24 513.18
    5 2835 3212.88 510.30
    4 2837 3217.41 510.66
    3 2881 3317.99 518.58
    2 2824 3187.99 508.32
    1 2819 3176.71 507.42
    Average: 2843.45
    StdDev: 53.80
    Min: 2721
    Max: 2915
    Spread: 194
    True MV: 2843.45
    Shots/sec: 0.02
    Group Size (IN): 0.00

    What do you say INGO?

    A chronograph that is 0.00ft from the muzzle will not give consistent or accurate readings. I'm sure that was an oversight on your part and the chronograph was not, in fact, right AT the muzzle of the rifle when you tested it.

    Irrespective of chronograph readings, the ammunition itself is DESPERATELY trying to tell you something, and you don't seem to be listening. Pierced or completely flattened primers are a sign of over-pressure loads, and they are dangerous. Instead of breaking your rifle in with that garbage, you might just break it into pieces!

    Is your plan to reload for this rifle? If so, why mess around with the cheapest possible ammo? Why would anyone do that to a new gun when it would cost even less money to make very safe handloads?
     

    Ericpwp

    Grandmaster
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    18   0   0
    Jan 14, 2011
    6,753
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    NWI
    I finally got around to uploading some pics.
    Here are the culprits:

    attachment.php

    attachment.php

    attachment.php


    Definitely seeing ejector marks on the popped ones.
    Do the others look flattened?
    Here is an unfired box from that lot:

    attachment.php


    The ammo has been sitting for a while. I found a fired box from this lot without these issues.

    attachment.php


    Here are some reloads of an unknown lot without any issues/scaring.
    attachment.php

    attachment.php


    I wonder if heat was a factor. It wasn't in the 90s or anything. There were no issues with the reloads, so I don't think the bore is tight.
     

    Broom_jm

    Master
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    Dec 10, 2009
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    A lot of those other primers are showing dimpling and flattening that would cause me to back off the powder charge, if they were handloads. I can't believe you fired so many of those rounds through your rifle...it's a good thing guns are well-made, today.
     

    Ericpwp

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    18   0   0
    Jan 14, 2011
    6,753
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    NWI
    As far as the dimpling, I think my firing pin/bolt tolerances are just loose. The bottom picture is of reloads, starting out pretty soft.

    I didn't really notice the primers were popping until one caused a case to get stuck. I stopped shooting when it was happening to the next box.
     

    Broom_jm

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    Dec 10, 2009
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    As far as the dimpling, I think my firing pin/bolt tolerances are just loose. The bottom picture is of reloads, starting out pretty soft.

    I didn't really notice the primers were popping until one caused a case to get stuck. I stopped shooting when it was happening to the next box.

    Your reloads don't show the cratering or the extreme flattening of the primers evident throughout the Herter's loads. I don't mean to come off too harsh here, but you had a problem long before your first pierced primer, you just weren't looking at the cases coming out of your rifle.
     

    Ericpwp

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    Jan 14, 2011
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    No, that's fine. I appreciate you looking at this. I'm just clarifying what you are seeing. The reloads are not showing the ejector marks either, and they were factory loads at one time. I think I might just disassemble the rounds and reload the brass. That or give them a shot in the middle of winter. But you probably think that's a bad idea.
     

    Broom_jm

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    Dec 10, 2009
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    No, that's fine. I appreciate you looking at this. I'm just clarifying what you are seeing. The reloads are not showing the ejector marks either, and they were factory loads at one time. I think I might just disassemble the rounds and reload the brass. That or give them a shot in the middle of winter. But you probably think that's a bad idea.

    The first idea is a very good one...shooting 'em during colder weather is still skating on thin ice. A load should be perfectly safe during summer, which these clearly are not (in your rifle).

    I started loading 30 years ago, when I was 17. My goal has always been ammo that is SAFE, and then effective. I got some factory 308 ammo one time that was loaded hot...I noticed it on the 4th round and immediately stopped shooting it. It's your gun, your hands and your face that are in potential jeopardy, I'm just saying if those loads came out of MY gun...I wouldn't put any more of them into my gun! :)
     
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