Loose Bullets?

[Doublehelix]

I made up some light shooting "mouse fart" loads for steel matches, and I love them. Very soft shooters and quick target re-acquisition. Good stuff.

I am using 9mm cases, but the bullet is a 100gr .380 plated bullet from Xtreme. They measure .355 diameter, and shoot really well.

Load Data (use at your own risk):
Cases: Mixed
Primer: CCI 500
Powder: 4.3 gr. HP-38
Bullet: Xtreme 100gr plated .380

Avg. Velocity: 1,060 fps
Power Factor: 104-106

Most of the rounds have fired fine, and I really love them. The problem is that I have seen 4 bullets (out of a 250 round batch) come free of the case (opposite of setback?). Two of these in the gun, and two when loading or unloading the mag. The powder spills everywhere, and is a mess and a hazard when in the gun.

I thought about re-crimping, but the crimp (especially with plated bullets) is to remove the flare and not to hold the bullet. I use a Lee FCD set with a very light crimp.

All cases are sized through a Redding Competition Carbide Sizing die.

I see no pattern as to the type of case with the issue. (2 = WIN, 1 = Fed, 1= Rem)

One thought was that the flare might have been too aggressive, so I have backed that off a bit for my other 9mm rounds, but have not made any more of the mouse farts since adjusting that die.

What other issues should I be considering? I though about maybe measuring a bullet before loading, then run it through the press, pull the bullet and re-measure to see if I am compressing or crimping the bullet too much.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

 

[Leadeye]

Lee FCD usually does a good job for me with 9mm cast and that with mixed cases. Might try a little more crimp.

 

[mac45]

You're right that over crimping is a bad thing.
But.....if the bullets are falling out, I think you need a bit more.

If this happened to me, I would tighten the crimp die a little at a time (1/8 turn), until the diameter at the mouth of the case matched a factory load.
Once my loads matched factory dimensions, I would test a few by pushing the bullet against the bench.
If they don't push in.....they shouldn't pull out.

 

[Doublehelix]

You're right that over crimping is a bad thing.
But.....if the bullets are falling out, I think you need a bit more.

If this happened to me, I would tighten the crimp die a little at a time (1/8 turn), until the diameter at the mouth of the case matched a factory load.
Once my loads matched factory dimensions, I would test a few by pushing the bullet against the bench.
If they don't push in.....they shouldn't pull out.

Thanks for your reply.

I actually did this with a group of cartridges (added more crimp), and when tested, I *CAN* push them into the case further when pushing against the bench. I should have mentioned that, sorry.

What does this tell you about my process? Check the adjust my sizing die maybe? Less flare?

I don't have this problem with any of the other 9mm cartridges I make. Maybe I need to look at how deep I am seating the bullet? That doesn't make too much sense either since I can push the bullet pretty far into the case when I press against the bench.

 

[red_zr24x4]

Sounds like you still need more crimp.
Go until the bullet wont push in, pull the bullet and look for jacket deformation.

 

[Robert Richardson]

Sounds like you have some cases with thin walls. No matter how much crimp you put on them they probably will not hold a bellet. Case tension is what holds the bullet, not the crimp.

 

[Robert Richardson]

Just for giggles resize those case and carefully try to seat a bullet and see if you can still push the bullet in the case easily.

 

[Fullmag]

Removing some of the flare will only cause more problems. The flare assists in setting the bullet in the case straight if lessened then the bullet can be pushed crooked or scrape the sides on the bullet base. What I did when I was having trouble adjusting the crimp was bought a Dillion case gage. $20.00 or so. Then lowered crimp until they became very consistent with a few that still don't pass. That has saved me a lot of headaches.

 

[mac45]

Thin walls are a possibility, but since you had the same problem with 3 flavors of cases, I'm inclined to think you just need a bit more crimp.
I'd snug 'em down a bit more and see how they shoot.

 

[mssmith44]

When I have had problems like this it is a small bullet with a case that is not resized small enough.
I use a Lee U-die for resizing 9mm. It is cut .001'' smaller according to Lee.
Good luck with your loads.

 

[NKBJ]

Might try sizing, not expanding, then bell the mouth with a universal flare expander such as Lee produces.
Thinking back to loading .380's... I used RCBS dies, .358 115 grain SWC's (Lyman #358345) and crimped only barely more than straightening the mouth back up.

 

[Doublehelix]

Thanks for all of the suggestions folks. I am going to try shooting some of the ones I crimped down a bit. This is a small bullet as @mssmith44 mentions. Not sure that I want to go with a U-die for these, but it a good suggestion.

 

[Lanternman]

If this were a roll crimp, I would suggest a smaller expander. But being a taper crimp, I think you will just need to crimp more.

Are these cases all from the same lot? Differences in wall thickness can definitely cause these random problems.

How many times have they been reloaded? Work hardened brass can behave differently on a crimp.

Consistency is everything when hand loading.

 

[Doublehelix]

If this were a roll crimp, I would suggest a smaller expander. But being a taper crimp, I think you will just need to crimp more.

Are these cases all from the same lot? Differences in wall thickness can definitely cause these random problems.

How many times have they been reloaded? Work hardened brass can behave differently on a crimp.

Consistency is everything when hand loading.

It is just range brass, all random headstamps and unknown number of fires, although this is brass that I have never fired before, I do keep that separate. I find that most range brass is once-fired since reloaders most always pick up their brass, but of course, that is never a given.

For precision work and my rifle work, I don't use range brass ever. I keep careful watch over that, but for pistol brass, I have got to the point where it is just mixed range brass.

All of the points you make are accurate, except I have never had this happen before, and with this batch of "mouse farts" I have had multiple failures.

Thanks for your comments, I have re-crimped, and now I just need to get out and test some rounds.

 

[Robert Richardson]

Like I said before, crimp does not hold the bullet, case tension does. If you have to heavy crimp a bullet, there is not enough case tension. A heavy crimp is just masking the problem. If you can push the bullet into the case by hand before you apply the crimp, heavy crimping it is not the solution.

 

[Fullmag]

Like I said before, crimp does not hold the bullet, case tension does. If you have to heavy crimp a bullet, there is not enough case tension. A heavy crimp is just masking the problem. If you can push the bullet into the case by hand before you apply the crimp, heavy crimping it is not the solution.

Even on pistol cases for semi autos? I've done that with bottlenecked cartridges but not pistol cases. They require at least a light crimp for good accuracy and more importantly the way they hit the feed ramp in a semi-auto maybe possibly in a light load for a revolver. The bullet hits the ramp before it is pushed into the chamber. Case tension of .002 to .003 is not enough to accomplish this.

 

[billybob44]

Just my 2 Cents--For what it's worth??

It's fun dealing with some of the "Off the Wall" type of loads..When you get it right-a GREAT feeling of satisfaction...

A couple of points here that hit me:

No mention (that I saw) of the Overall length of this load??
A lighter than standard min. weight projectile with the 100gr. projectile, (Standard min. weight in this caliber is 115gr.) With this in mind, the projectile itself will be shorter than the 115gr. projectile. There will be less "contact" with this 100gr. to the case of the 9MM.=Simple physics-the less contact, the less friction to hold the projectile into the case. My thoughts, seat the projectile a little (.002" to .004") deeper into the case. This WILL raise the pressure of this load!! Back off of the charge weight of this load (.2gr. to .3gr.), and check cycling of your pistol, along with the velocity.

As stated upthread, you MAY?? try a 1/8 of a turn, or so deeper with your Redding Carbide Size die. Do NOT do this if your die is like some RCBS carbide dies with the carbide insert at the VERY bottom of the die assembly!! Good way to damage a die if this is the case.

Another thing that stuck out to me:

No mention of the pistol used with this "Experiment"...If you are using these "Mouse Fart" loads with a STANDARD weapon, with the standard (Read HEAVY) recoil spring, the projectile may?? be driven forward when the load goes into battery?? This will especially show up with the VERY small amount of contact of the projectile to the 9MM cases. I would try a lighter recoil spring for this weapon, by 2-4 #'s.

The "Bottom Line" of my post is that if you are using a "Shorter" projectile than Min. standard, you will NOT have the "Friction" that you would have with the 115gr. (Normal Min. Standard) projectile..

As also stated upthread, you can try a little more crimp. Try to achieve the same outside case diameter at the mouth of the case that a 115gr. 9MM factory load will have.

With mixed range brass you will also have mixed case length, and case wall thickness..This will also make a MIXED amount of "Friction" of the projectile to case mouth.

For ME...I would move up to the Standard 115gr. projectile, down load it to where it would cycle your weapon 100%, and call it a day...

AGAIN--JUST My 2 cents...Bill.

 

[Robert Richardson]

Even on pistol cases for semi autos? I've done that with bottlenecked cartridges but not pistol cases. They require at least a light crimp for good accuracy and more importantly the way they hit the feed ramp in a semi-auto maybe possibly in a light load for a revolver. The bullet hits the ramp before it is pushed into the chamber. Case tension of .002 to .003 is not enough to accomplish this.

I am not saying do not crimp it, I am saying try to push the bullet into the case before you crimp. I always give a little taper crimp to all my autoloader ammo. A lot of guys run with just removing the flare and don't use a crimp. The case should hold the bullet without a crimp. If you seat a bullet in a case and then pull it and measure the inside diameter of the case, you will usually find that it measures about. 001 smaller than the bullet. After the bullet expands the case it only holds the bullet with about .001 tension.

 

[Doublehelix]

Bill: Thanks for your response, lots of great stuff in there...

It's fun dealing with some of the "Off the Wall" type of loads..When you get it right-a GREAT feeling of satisfaction...

A couple of points here that hit me:

No mention (that I saw) of the Overall length of this load??
A lighter than standard min. weight projectile with the 100gr. projectile, (Standard min. weight in this caliber is 115gr.) With this in mind, the projectile itself will be shorter than the 115gr. projectile. There will be less "contact" with this 100gr. to the case of the 9MM.=Simple physics-the less contact, the less friction to hold the projectile into the case. My thoughts, seat the projectile a little (.002" to .004") deeper into the case. This WILL raise the pressure of this load!! Back off of the charge weight of this load (.2gr. to .3gr.), and check cycling of your pistol, along with the velocity.

I made these to 1.045" COAL. They are FN projectiles. I have been considering seating them slightly shorter for the very reasons you suggest.

As stated upthread, you MAY?? try a 1/8 of a turn, or so deeper with your Redding Carbide Size die. Do NOT do this if your die is like some RCBS carbide dies with the carbide insert at the VERY bottom of the die assembly!! Good way to damage a die if this is the case.

I checked the die, and at full stroke of the ram, it is just touching the shell plate, so I am going to leave it alone for now. I seem to be getting nice full-length sizing.

No mention of the pistol used with this "Experiment"...If you are using these "Mouse Fart" loads with a STANDARD weapon, with the standard (Read HEAVY) recoil spring, the projectile may?? be driven forward when the load goes into battery?? This will especially show up with the VERY small amount of contact of the projectile to the 9MM cases. I would try a lighter recoil spring for this weapon, by 2-4 #'s.

I have been shooting these through a SIG P226 Legion SAO with the standard spring. I thought about getting a lighter spring, but the gun seemed to cycle fine with the current spring at this load, so I left it alone.

Honestly, I really don't want to hassle with having more than one spring that I have to keep track of and remember to switch back and forth, so I have decided to not go down this road either.

I love the light load, but NOT that much!!!

The "Bottom Line" of my post is that if you are using a "Shorter" projectile than Min. standard, you will NOT have the "Friction" that you would have with the 115gr. (Normal Min. Standard) projectile..

These are my thoughts as well.

As also stated upthread, you can try a little more crimp. Try to achieve the same outside case diameter at the mouth of the case that a 115gr. 9MM factory load will have.

With mixed range brass you will also have mixed case length, and case wall thickness..This will also make a MIXED amount of "Friction" of the projectile to case mouth.

I have done this, now I need to get out and test them to see how they perform.

For ME...I would move up to the Standard 115gr. projectile, down load it to where it would cycle your weapon 100%, and call it a day...

AGAIN--JUST My 2 cents...Bill.

There is great wisdom in this statement!!! I have been reading other bits of information that suggest a light load with a HEAVIER projectile (147 gr maybe???) might actually "feel" lighter than the lower weight projectile.

The bottom line is that I really love these loads, but I am not going to kill myself to make them work, although I do enjoy solving the puzzle aspect of handloading.

At this point, I am going to test the new crimp profile, and then the next step would be to work up another load with a deeper bullet seating depth and try that. If all of that does not work, I may just move on to trying a light load in 124 gr or 146 gr and see how those shoot.

Thanks to everyone for all of the great feedback and advice.