.223 Rem Neck Size

[Pxl357]

Hey guys ,

i just got my first press this week ( rcbs rock chucker ) and the .223 die sets.
i run a few trials to learn the steps but i found a small issue in my result.
Basically after resizing my neck come out at 6.1mm instead of 6.43mm ( 0.24inch) before bullet seating.

i check my setup ans everything is normal. Should i worry about that gap in sizing ?

thanks !

peter

 

[sloughfoot]

If the inside diameter of the neck is .223 you are GTG. What is this metric stuff of which you speak? You a furrinner?

Better be for a bolt gun and not a semi auto.... 1 thousands neck tension is ideal.

 

[Sling10mm]

6.43mm is .253 inches, and 6.1mm is .240 inches, and that would seem to be too much neck tension.

Don't take offense to this, but does your sizing die have a neck sizing button in it?

 

[natdscott]

What are you measuring with right now? Have you loaded ammunition before?

Those figures are way too low, but I question them, even from RCBS.

You need to start thinking and speaking and measuring in thousandths of inches, and questions kinda have to follow that...like "My die is giving a sized neck diameter of 0.240" with an inside diameter of 0.216". Is this a problem?"

Which it TOTALLY would be.

Either way though, as a means of answering partially: if you have a commercial NON bushing die labeled ".223 Remington" and it is turning out ANY dimension at 0.240"...buddy you best be getting your money back.

 

[billybob44]

Sling is on point..

6.43mm is .253 inches, and 6.1mm is .240 inches, and that would seem to be too much neck tension.

Don't take offense to this, but does your sizing die have a neck sizing button in it?

Your INSIDE Neck diameter should be .2225" to .223" for proper case neck tension.
This SMALL measurement is almost impossible to check with normal calipers due to the "Square" edges of the caliper jaws.
You are better to check/control by dealing with the expander button. .222" is ideal for the expander button in most cases. If the button is steel, it can be sanded down somewhat in a drill press.

Do you feel a "drag" as the expander is dawned through the case neck, on the upstroke of the press handle?? Mic your expander button, it should be around .222".

As said upthread, if these #'s are not close, a call to RCBS is in order..Bill.

 

[billybob44]

" ( rcbs rock chucker ) and the .223 die sets."

Are these RCBS DIES??

If these dies are the standard two die set, then just set up per their instructions. As stated upthread, if you are dealing with "Bushing" type dies, then you are in a totally different ball game.

You need to see if you can grab an experienced handloader in your area to help you out, or send gas $$$ for me to come from McCordsville to set you up..HA. HA. HA....Bill.

 

[natdscott]

Put another way, in bushing dies where we have an option, almost all .223 can be well-accommodated for both function and accuracy by using a 0.244-0.246" bushing size. Thicker brass like Lapua might need the 0.246-0.248.

That of course turns out a casing with a neck diameter of approximately those figures (for the sake of argument). If we take out the neck wall thickness, we can easily know the internal diameter without any need for tooling.

MOST .223 falls between 0.011" and 0.013" neck wall thickness.

So let's say you're using Winchester brass (at 0.0115"-0.012" neck wall) and a 0.244" bushing. That combination would turn out a casing with an INTERNAL neck diameter of 0.244" minus 0.115" minus 0.0115" ...or 0.221".
As a bullet is a diameter of 0.2245" at the pressure ring, more-or-less, you would have 0.003" tension on the bullet when it is loaded.

Now YOUR die is obviously not a bushing die, so you don't have that option (not that you need it, necessarily), but what that means is that you kinda have to reverse-engineer to figure out where RCBS cut the neck.

So.

1) Take out the entire decapping rod/expander ball unit.
2) Fully lube a clean casing.
3) Run the casing carefully into and out of the die.
4) After verifying the caliper is zeroed on close, use it to carefully measure across the straight portion of the neck, being careful to stay OFF the neck shoulder junction (that's easy to do on .223...small casing).

5) Come tell us what that number is BEFORE you mess with any other casings.

You need to see if you can grab an experienced handloader in your area to help you out, or send gas $$$ for me to come from McCordsville to set you up..HA. HA. HA....Bill.

And yeah, this is going to be very helpful. Bill may be half joking, but he may not either. I didn't have anybody to teach me, so I solved it with about $500 in books over the years. That has worked quite well, but I could have probably saved some money along the line.

At most, that gas might cost you $15.

-Nate

 

[Pxl357]

Thanks guys , very very helpful.
My first reaction was to order a better caliper. I also need to check how i setup the die , i think i made a mistake and turn the die by 1/8 turn up instead of down.

I will check back after more trials and measurement

 

[billybob44]

$25.00 With all of the "Up Charges" and all...

Put another way, in bushing dies where we have an option, almost all .223 can be well-accommodated for both function and accuracy by using a 0.244-0.246" bushing size. Thicker brass like Lapua might need the 0.246-0.248.

That of course turns out a casing with a neck diameter of approximately those figures (for the sake of argument). If we take out the neck wall thickness, we can easily know the internal diameter without any need for tooling.

MOST .223 falls between 0.011" and 0.013" neck wall thickness.

So let's say you're using Winchester brass (at 0.0115"-0.012" neck wall) and a 0.244" bushing. That combination would turn out a casing with an INTERNAL neck diameter of 0.244" minus 0.115" minus 0.0115" ...or 0.221".
As a bullet is a diameter of 0.2245" at the pressure ring, more-or-less, you would have 0.003" tension on the bullet when it is loaded.

Now YOUR die is obviously not a bushing die, so you don't have that option (not that you need it, necessarily), but what that means is that you kinda have to reverse-engineer to figure out where RCBS cut the neck.

So.

1) Take out the entire decapping rod/expander ball unit.
2) Fully lube a clean casing.
3) Run the casing carefully into and out of the die.
4) After verifying the caliper is zeroed on close, use it to carefully measure across the straight portion of the neck, being careful to stay OFF the neck shoulder junction (that's easy to do on .223...small casing).

5) Come tell us what that number is BEFORE you mess with any other casings.




And yeah, this is going to be very helpful. Bill may be half joking, but he may not either. I didn't have anybody to teach me, so I solved it with about $500 in books over the years. That has worked quite well, but I could have probably saved some money along the line.

At most, that gas might cost you $15.

-Nate

Yep Nate, right there with you..With all the books and all, not to mention 47-48 years of handloading under my belt..HA..

At least the OP picked a GREAT starting press (RCBS RockChucker)..Mine has been on the right side of my bench since 1970, and just gets better each "Stroke"..HA.HA.HA...(See what I did there??)...Bill.

 

[bigedp51]

Thanks guys , very very helpful.
My first reaction was to order a better caliper. I also need to check how i setup the die , i think i made a mistake and turn the die by 1/8 turn up instead of down.

I will check back after more trials and measurement

All you need to do is measure your expander diameter and it should be .001 to .002 smaller than bullet diameter.

If you are using a bushing die and not turning the case necks Redding recommends sizing the inside neck diameter .004 smaller than bullet diameter and use the expander.

I use Forster full length benchrest dies and benchrest seater dies. Look at the test below on the different type dies and neck runout paying attention to how much runout with bushing dies.

At the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric cases with non-bushing full length dies.

[video=youtube;9I2pwRDxDOQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I2pwRDxDOQ[/video]

 

[LeverGunFan]

A company called Ballistic Tools makes a handy case neck diameter gauge, here is the link:

https://ballistictools.com/store/case-mouth-gage-224-308

If you load a lot of .223, it will save time in checking case mouth diameters. They also make gauges for checking primer pockets after removing the crimp.

 

[Pxl357]

After re-adjusting the die i was able to get better ( and consistent ) results.
I purchased a better caliper to make better measurement.

I have now the results below :
- interior neck size range from 0.2231 to 0.2235. I noticed 2 over and i suspect i went too fast with press on this ones.

Is that good enough ? What the usual acceptable tolerance ? 0.0005 seems fine but i rather be sure.

 

[bigedp51]

Again, measure the dies expander diameter, it should be approximately .001 to .002 smaller than bullet diameter. And depending on neck thickness and hardness the brass spring back can vary after expanding.

Below a .223 Lyman type "M" expander at .221 for a .224 jacketed bullet or .225 cast bullet. And this would give .003 or more bullet grip or neck tension, meaning .001 to .003 bullet grip or neck tension can be used. The case mouth is bumped on to the .226 step on the expander below to aid bullet seating and reduce neck runout.

Bottom line forget trying to measure inside neck diameter with vernier calipers, it is not a very accurate method and just measure the expanders diameter. Some reloaders use pin gauges to measure inside neck diameter but brass spring back varies with the brand of brass and how many times the case has been fired.

And again at the Whidden custom die website they sell expander kits with five expanders form bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter. And this is to control bullet grip or neck tension and compensate for brass spring back after sizing.

Most of my expanders have been polished and are .002 to .0025 smaller than bullet diameter.

Below a brand new RCBS expander and a very good reason to polish the expander till it is smooth.

 

[natdscott]

But dude.

You still didn't do what I asked (not that you have to, I guess).

I'm trying to determine if you have a die that is way too small BEFORE the expander UNdoes all the work.

Big Ed, you have a point here, but respectfully, you are missing another really big one. This guy MAY have a chamber doing 0.255, loaded rounds at 0.247, and a die that puts them at 0.240 before the expander rips back through.

See my point? I'm tryin' to diagnose that range of motion. IF the above is true, his expander ball diameter doesn't matter, because that die is going back to RCBS (which is not unheard of at all).

-Nate

 

[bigedp51]

But dude.

You still didn't do what I asked (not that you have to, I guess).

I'm trying to determine if you have a die that is way too small BEFORE the expander UNdoes all the work.

Big Ed, you have a point here, but respectfully, you are missing another really big one. This guy MAY have a chamber doing 0.255, loaded rounds at 0.247, and a die that puts them at 0.240 before the expander rips back through.

See my point? I'm tryin' to diagnose that range of motion. IF the above is true, his expander ball diameter doesn't matter, because that die is going back to RCBS (which is not unheard of at all).

-Nate

I'm not missing anything, I'm 67 and have been reloading for over 47 years. And the best part about reloading is the person pulling the press handle decides how to do it.

Chambers and dies vary in size and all the new reloader needs to know is the size of the expander, and if it expands the neck. Trying to measure the inside diameter of the case neck with a vernier caliper is a waste of time.

Forster will hone the neck of their dies to your desired diameter for $12 but I have "never" had to do this with any Forster die. And Redding tells you if you do not turn your case necks with their bushing dies to size the inside neck diameter .004 smaller and use the expander that comes with their dies. So you are still working the case neck and at most gaining a few thousandths less movement. Bottom line 99% of the time the primer pockets will be over sized before you have a cracked necks.

The OP needs and you need to read the link below and the last paragraph gives you the final option, "Do Nothing" dies are designed to work with the thinnest brass. And if the OP does not have pin gauges "Do Nothing" is the best option.

Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?

Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass? - MassReloading

 

[natdscott]

Big Ed. You're right, he does get to decide how to do things.

But since he's here asking for expert advice, he really DOESN'T get a say in his future ignorance if you intentionally censor complete data you have because of...w'hell, I don't know...whatever your reasoning is...

Facts
--->He quoted a sized neck OD of "0.24inch". No other correction, modification, or redaction has been communicated.
--->Even with the TURNED brass at 10 to 10.5 thousandths, that would be sizing to an inside diameter of 0.220". With what he's probably using, it's more like 0.218-0.219"
--->That's too much. I'd say FTS...send it back to RCBS.

HE can do whatever he wants. But I feel that he is as entitled as anybody to get the FULL answer, not just the 'new reloader' answer. My approach is not without faults, but I don't pretend it is.

Ed, I don't get it. I specifically tried to be respectful to you, and you turn around and act like a jerk. For the record, I do have various class X and ZZ pin gauges and good mics and lab balances and force measurement and climate control and state records for my efforts and blah, blah, blah.

But thanks for speaking down to me anyway; I need a little dose of that from your generation every day, or I might lose my place in the world.


Pxl357, if you need help, send me a PM as I'm not even 30 minutes away. But I'm done here.

Sincerely,
-Nate

 

[bigedp51]

The OP has no control over how much the neck expands in his chamber each time the case is fired.

At the link I posted there was .004 between the minimum and maximum the .223 dies reduced the neck diameter.

If the OP has the dies neck honed there is a chance if thinner Winchester cases are used the die will not reduce the neck diameter enough.

At the link below three Forster dies had their necks honed for different neck tension.
natdscott
FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies within AccurateShooter.com

Below are some of my .223 dies I have tested and missing are Redding FL type S bushing dies. And the OP does not need more than one die, and even if his die reduces the neck diameter .004 more than another die it is not the end of the world. The OP does not have a neck thickness gauge and his inside neck diameter is only .001 to .0015 smaller than bullet diameter. This would be OK but if he polished the expander he would have more neck tension and a smoother expander with less drag.

Bottom line the OP is not ready for honing the neck of his die until he learns more about reloading and has more and better gauges to measure his case neck thickness. And the more you shoot the case the harder the neck will become and spring back more after sizing. Meaning if he has the dies neck honed his die might not size 25% to 50% of his case necks to the proper neck tension.

My Forster bushing bump die in my photo comes with three bushings, 247″, .245″, .243″ diameters to cover all the neck thickness variations. And the OP has one die with one neck diameter that will size any .223 case.

And natdscott there are over 7.6 billion people on this earth and you are not the only person in the world who knows how to reload.

KISS = Keep it simple stupid

 

[Pxl357]

Thanks a lot for the feedback and links.
Sorry if my questions are obvious , there is decent learning curve for beginners like me.
i will get a gage to check my measurement , i know i understand why a caliper could show variance in measurement.

 

[bigedp51]

Pxl357

Brass is a expandable item and I buy bulk once fired miltary Lake City 5.56 cases that have been processed. And these cases are much cheaper than new Remington, Winchester and a fraction of the cost of Lapua brass. And as you can see they are very uniform in weight variations and have the the most case capacity. On top of this Lake City cases are made of harder brass and made to withstand higher pressures and will last longer than commercial .223 cases.

So do not worry about the neck diameter of your RCBS die until you become rich and famous and start buying Lapua brass at .64 cents ea. vs .19 cents ea. for the Lake City cases.

.223/5.56 Cleaned, Deprimed & Swaged Lake City Brass 500 Pieces $59.00 free shipping