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  • 1stLast&Always

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Aug 14, 2016
    234
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    Indy No Place
    Loading up some 124 gr.XTP for SD loads. This will be for a Ruger LC9s (3" barrel) as well as my trusty S&W SD9VE (4" barrel). I have heard +P might be best for the subcompact. I'm not looking for overpenetration as this is both HD and carry ammo, so the load will have both roles in both firearms.

    With all due respect, I trust my handloads, so I'm not looking for the "Don't load your own SD ammo" argument. I respect it, but I disagree.

    I'd like to hear suggestions for the build based on the following. If you don't feel comfy recommending your own personal recipe here, feel free to PM!

    Case options include Federal Champion, S&B, Blazer and Win. Which do you think would be a reliable choice? Brass only.

    Primers: CCI small pistol, S&B any others?

    Powders: Here is where I need the most help. I have Titegroup and Universal (usually a 5 gr load on Uni for 115 gr.), but I'm sure all of you will have something better.

    Last but not least: I watched a great video by Rob Leatham, about what uses to determine "power" of his pistol loads. He compared .45 and 9, and he discussed grain wt/velocity as the two prime determinants. He called this momentum at a power level of 130 for 9mm. Grain weight x velocity. Is that just for his matches or would this also be recommended for SD?

    His .45 loads had more grain projectile weight of course, but he also loads SD ammo for 9. Of course his .45 load transferred more energy to the plates. I'll load .45 later!

    If you think you have an ideal combo for this to create that power, please list your recipe/chrono for 124 gr if you would like!
     
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    spencer rifle

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    66   0   0
    Apr 15, 2011
    6,544
    149
    Scrounging brass
    No chrono, so no data.
    124 gr RMR JHP over 3.4 gr Clays, misc brass case, Wolf primer. No signs of overpressure. Works well and accurately in my Ruger P-series pistols and carbines.
     

    Old Syko

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 7, 2008
    491
    18
    Can't help with the 9 but if you do go to 45 I have tested proof. I will say we agree on using reloads for SD. Carry what you practice most with and practice a lot.
     

    t-squared

    Master
    Site Supporter
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    7   0   0
    May 9, 2012
    1,765
    113
    Crown Point
    Since they make the bullets AND loads for them, you can just copy Hornady's data specs.

    https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/9mm-luger-124-gr-xtp#!/

    https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/9mm-p-luger-124-gr-xtp-american-gunner#!/

    I would think new brass is justified for SD use. You can buy 100ct bags of any of the major brands easily. Use the once fired stuff for practice loads.

    Primers probably don't matter, unless the load data calls for a specific one. Federal is know to be the "softest" out of the common brands though, so it might be worth using them as a hedge against a lighter primer strike.

    For powder, simply look through various load data sources to find one that suits your needs. You'll find that for magnum/heavy loads, like most SD stuff is, a "slower" powder is gonna be the only way to get to your target velocities. FYI, looking through Hodgdon's data for TG or Universal there are no loads that will get you to Hornady's listed velocity of 1110fps much less the +P 1175fps. Also, there are powders that have been treated with flash suppressants that might be worth considering for use in low light conditions.

    One last thing, from my personal guns and chrono, my SD loads lost 70fps going from a SR9(4.1") to a LC9s(3.1").
     

    russc2542

    Master
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    24   0   0
    Oct 24, 2015
    2,111
    83
    Columbus
    Nickel cases might be better for SD on paper, in the real world they all work. reloading Al or Fe cases has some other considerations and risks (no new source, case wear, tool wear, load data behavior of neck tension/crimp).

    From experience, titegroup can be clean but mostly the hotter loads. Titegroup can also be a flamethrower, especially if you want to match factory SD loads out of a 3" barrel (it was fiery out of my 4.5" XDm). Not a problem in daylight but decidedly against it in low light. Titegroups also finicky in that it takes so little powder you have little margin for error keeping loads consistent and it's easy to overcharge (double charge fits in a 9mm. it's quite noticeable but it won't overflow).

    Never had an issue with CCI or Win primers myself but I've heard S&B are some of the hardest primers (greater chance of light strikes)

    weight and velocity make a number called power factor, I don't know who came up with it but it's used in a number of shooting sports as a multiplier for scoring (lighter loads=lower multiplier)
     

    spencer rifle

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    66   0   0
    Apr 15, 2011
    6,544
    149
    Scrounging brass
    Another INGO friend also recommended Clays. He says it burns clean.
    It does. Way cleaner than Power Pistol. It is also unforgiving of carelessness. Pressure rises dramatically upward with only a little more powder. Makes many rounds per pound, burns clean, can also be used for shotgun, but requires experience to use safely.
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
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    24   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
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    Indiana
    If you're going to load your own JHP defensive ammunition, you should do two things:

    1. Contact the manufacturer to determine the range of speeds at which the bullet will expand properly.
    2. Get a chrono and make sure your ammo is within that range, not above and not below.

    Ideally you would then make some properly calibrated ballistic gelatin and test to confirm performance.

    You really have to do #1 and #2. Hollow points are designed for specific speeds. If you push them too fast, they will expand too early and perhaps too much and not penetrate sufficiently. They might even fragment (which is BAD for pistol bullets, but good for some rifle bullets). If they're too slow, they won't expand properly either.
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    24   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
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    Indiana
    Excellent, appreciated advice that will be followed. Now if only I had somewhere to shoot at ballistic gel...

    You can make your own! Get the recipe from a google search, make a few blocks and keep them in the fridge, then haul them to the range in a cooler. They have to be at the right temperature for the test to be valid.
     

    1stLast&Always

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Aug 14, 2016
    234
    18
    Indy No Place
    Update: Contacted Hornady Techs. "John" says velocity between "900-1200" will allow full expansion of their XTP 124 gr. That's a pretty wide range. When I asked what powder might put one in that range with a lower flash, he was unsure. "I use Power Pistol or CFE".
    Please discuss!
     

    bgcatty

    Master
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    23   0   0
    Sep 9, 2011
    3,021
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    Carmel
    Go and read articles and books on firearms self defense by Massad Ayoob on ammunition and self defense shootings and you might reconsider your thoughts. Prosecutors will make every effort to rip you a new one because of your use of your own reloads in a purported self defense shooting. Go and get educated on what really happens in a court room in these cases by a nationally recognized expert in this area of the law. Best of luck!
     

    1stLast&Always

    Marksman
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    1   0   0
    Aug 14, 2016
    234
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    Indy No Place
    Appreciate the opinions. Just curious, though I hear the common sense, how many cases has Mr.Ayoob personally represented and won/lost on the ammo argument?

    Good lawyers and evidence (or lack thereof) can convince juries either way. Not everyone can produce receipts or prove they are certain exactly what was in ammunition, even if manufactured, without testimony to demonstrate. If it is true self defense scenario, defending your life, there must be a sound defense strategy on the larger picture, not the smaller one.

    You feared for your life, you used enough to stop the threat. If you manufactured ammo at recommended capacities (or even lower), how is that excessive?

    Further,an attorney could argue that even with your store bought ammo, that you used hollow points which are another perception issue for a jury.

    These are fine points to an already huge liability. I'd like to hear some recitation of cases. If Mr.Ayoob has that info, please share what publication(s) specifically.
     
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    sht4brnz

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 93.3%
    14   1   0
    Aug 29, 2012
    352
    18
    N.IndNpls
    If you are loading for maximum power/velocity gauging your loads from pressure signs, do not assume that your other firearms will handle the same load. Just because it works in one does not mean that you won't have ill effects in the other. The chambers and barrels on multiple guns will never be identical.
    Work your loads up on each firearm independently. If one gun begins showing pressure signs on a lighter load than the other, that would be the max load. You remove the possibility of putting a hot load in a gun that won't handle the pressure.
     

    cosermann

    Grandmaster
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    14   0   0
    Aug 15, 2008
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    Appreciate the opinions. Just curious, though I hear the common sense, how many cases has Mr.Ayoob ...

    ... Not everyone can produce receipts or prove they are certain exactly what was in ammunition, even if manufactured, without testimony to demonstrate. ...

    You feared for your life, you used enough to stop the threat. If you manufactured ammo at recommended capacities (or even lower), how is that excessive? ...

    Ayoob's experience is significant over many decades. He gives example cases that involve this very issue in a number of his books and articles.

    In a nutshell - the reliability of your reloads is not the issue. I'm sure they're fine. What could be an issue is that with reloads a) you won't be able to use a fair bit of data, to make or break your case, if it's relevant, because any data that you'd provide would be considered tainted. Whereas, with factory ammo, that data is provided by the manufacturer and can be tested independently, b) it's an opportunity for a prosecutor to put the worst possible spin on things - like you being a "nutjob so intent on killing someone that factory ammo wasn't 'deadly' enough, so you made your own," or some such other nonsense. Neither of which is insurmountable, but either can make your case more difficult than it has to be. Why make things potentially more difficult?

    It's not as simple as you think it might be. Ask the questions and do the research. Good luck.
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
    25,890
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    Appreciate the opinions. Just curious, though I hear the common sense, how many cases has Mr.Ayoob personally represented and won/lost on the ammo argument?

    Good lawyers and evidence (or lack thereof) can convince juries either way. Not everyone can produce receipts or prove they are certain exactly what was in ammunition, even if manufactured, without testimony to demonstrate. If it is true self defense scenario, defending your life, there must be a sound defense strategy on the larger picture, not the smaller one.

    You feared for your life, you used enough to stop the threat. If you manufactured ammo at recommended capacities (or even lower), how is that excessive?

    Further,an attorney could argue that even with your store bought ammo, that you used hollow points which are another perception issue for a jury.

    These are fine points to an already huge liability. I'd like to hear some recitation of cases. If Mr.Ayoob has that info, please share what publication(s) specifically.

    Ayoob does.
    https://gundigest.com/handguns/concealed-carry/handloads-not-a-good-idea-for-concealed-carry

    , but the state crime lab tested with a much more powerful factory load, based on the headstamp on the reloaded casings. That gave a false indication of distance involved, and the defendant – whom I have strong reason to believe was innocent – was convicted of manslaughter.

    However, think beyond the criminal case. Civil is where you are more likely to have an issue. As I've mentioned several times elsewhere, anything they can latch on to in order to paint you as irresponsible, dangerous, spoiling for a fight, etc. they will. And your lawyer will have to answer those questions. And that costs you money, both for your lawyers time and potentially in a judgement or settlement.

    To partially quote an attorney who does this sort of thing:

    You can set things up so that you are able to present the best picture of yourself possible.


    Objective reasonability…you need to be able to convince other people your decision was rational & prudent; therefore, training needs to be as contextually appropriate & non-controversial as possible with the best pedigree you can get. It is hard to argue with excellence. It is hard to say your decision is not reasonable when you acted in conformity with “The Textbook(s)” as taught by “The Expert(s)”.

    If your decision process & actions are in conformity with those who are respected on the issue it becomes a very easy sell.

    We expect people in dangerous situations to act with reasonable care (that is a buzz word for lawyers). If you act with reasonable care – as evidenced by your decisions & actions conforming to “The Textbook(s)” as taught by “The Expert(s)” it makes the decision by a police officer/prosecutor to say to his boss that the incident is kosher – notwithstanding the awesome gruesomeness of how well you did in packing the morgue – that much easier.

    After all, if your actions were in conformity with the law, everyone who matters has the ass covered – right?

    Because this is all about ass covering.

    You think a prosecutor in a staff meeting will say “Boss, I think it’s questionable…but I’m inclined to let it go because…reasons & things…plus, I’m a gun guy! NRA 4 Life, yo!”
    Nope. He’s going to need to cover his ass.
    You need to make it easy for him.

    You need to make his case to his boss for him.

    You need to be able to let him tell his boss, “Based on the forgoing, the shooter acted in conformity with the applicable law as well as best practices. Accordingly, I recommend this case not proceed as no criminal action is present…” and have him able to defend his choice.


    Equipment – Got a reason for that modification? Does it help sell your case? What does it do for you?

    Reasonable people can disagree.
    Reasonable people WILL disagree on a lot of things, but if a consensus of experts would look at something, then say, “I wouldn’t do that **** if I was you…”

    Well.

    Who decides what is reasonable?
    Ultimately, the po-po & the prosecutor.
    Who do they consult?

    Experts. If experts look at something you did to that gun saying “Nah, dawg! You roll that way…I’m gonna not go with you…” (Backing away SLOWLY from the nutball…) you probably shouldn’t do it.


    Generally speaking (I hate that term…) if you have to sell something hard, it is ****.

    I don’t need to hard sell a guy with training within the past 2 years from a reputable shooting school run by a non-controversial instructor who is using equipment that is not illegal to carry in good working order which is modified within the scope of normal modifications (Glock stock trigger changed to NY-1/3.5#, M&P with an Apex Duty/Carry kit/1911 with carry package from Colt or a reputable shop) who didn’t set up/provoke a situation, attempted to avoid trouble but then defended himself.

    Steak & Red wine. Sells itself.
    You just put that **** out there and people eat it.

    If you need to do mental contortions or take people down a twisted path of “Because…well…” to explain why something was done…
    Roast cat.
    You can package that as “Authentic Chinese Food!” all you want.
    I’m not paying for it. If given it, I won’t eat it. Sell it – yeah, not on commission.

    If you do things that alienate others, expect a reaction.

    I once argued with a client over the idea “But it wasn’t illegal!” – My response was, “In family court it doesn’t matter. It only matters if the Judge likes you…or, more simply, if you didn’t alienate him.”

    Act like a freak, get treated like one.

    Freaks don’t get to slam the prom queen. Freaks are socially isolated because nobody wants to be friends with them.

    You want to slam the prom queen.
    (Or, for the females, the prom king. Unless it is the prom queen you are after…or for men who want the prom king…forget it…you know what I mean...)

    You want to be a freak who shot someone?

    OK...

    Then you get a prosecutor who is convinced he needs to work on that case because he's taking his job to protect the public seriously...

    Looking at you as a threat.

    He has resources he's going to throw at the case. Police officers who have went to "The Top Schools for Guns" as well as attended State & Federal training on "How to be a good witness" & "Connecting with the jury - a LE Seminar for testimony."

    Do you see any recognized experts advocating carrying hand loads for self defense? Do you see any advocating to not to? Which is an easier sell?
     

    1stLast&Always

    Marksman
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Aug 14, 2016
    234
    18
    Indy No Place
    I think valid points have been made, but the thread was sidetracked. Though a lawyer's advice is good, it doesn't mean you'd beat a case with Hornady, Speer or anyone else. There are several additional arguments to get you convicted/sued.

    Will check out the Ayoob! Jury is also still out until a collection of court decisions based on that very fact could be culled into meaningful data... I truly would enjoy reading them.

    Whew! Good thing I've been carrying Critical Defense! And thanks everyone for looking out for me, I appreciate it.
     
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