Birdshot then 00 for home defense?

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  • Beemer

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    I have always been one for 00 for my HD 12ga. However I have recently had several people argue that it is best to start with a bird shot load and follow with the 00. Any opinions? Thanks in advance.
     

    churchmouse

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    Uh.......why...??? If you are in fear for your life at a level you will defend then you are not wanting to **** them off. You want to stop them. Just make sure they are inside and facing you when this happens.
    I load up with #2 steel Nitro Express in 3"

    Start strong. Finish strong.
     

    Beemer

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    The opinion I have heard is that it won't penetrate walls. I agree, why? That is why I am putting this question out there.
     

    churchmouse

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    The opinion I have heard is that it won't penetrate walls. I agree, why? That is why I am putting this question out there.

    No knock on you at all. "Bird" shot. Designed to bring down birds. Not men. Yes it could end you but if dressed for this weather it may not find anything vital.

    Shot will spread over distance. You should not see a lot of spread inside the home at defensive distance. Be sure of your target.

    This is why I do not use a shotgun as 1st choice for HD. I have 1 at the ready but I am more at ease with a handgun. JMHO and I am sure others will differ.
     

    KellyinAvon

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    Some time back BBI posted about a guy who was shot twice with a 12 gauge and what sounded like target loads. The guy who got shot was wearing a heavy coat and BBI said it just looked like he had bad acne. That was all I needed to go 00 buckshot.

    Over-penetration: That's a whole other discussion. Type of dwelling, type of weapon, other people in the dwelling?
     

    wcd

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    The opinion I have heard is that it won't penetrate walls. I agree, why? That is why I am putting this question out there.

    If you can, take a 5 gallon bucket fill with water and use it for target practice with bird shot, I think the results will explain a lot.
     

    Sylvain

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    Uh.......why...??? If you are in fear for your life at a level you will defend then you are not wanting to **** them off. You want to stop them. Just make sure they are inside and facing you when this happens.
    I load up with #2 steel Nitro Express in 3"

    Start strong. Finish strong.

    :+1:

    What this old timer said! :oldwise:
     

    Leadeye

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    At inside house ranges you don't get much spread with a shotgun, the lead is going to be in a close clump. That said bird shot will spread faster as the range increases and you will lose power/penetration. I stick with 00 and don't worry about any increase in range. At inside house ranges what a shotgun has with a full power buckshot cartridge is it's ability to damage a target. 9 32 caliber balls tearing into a person at once is going to hurt.
     

    Beemer

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    At inside house ranges you don't get much spread with a shotgun, the lead is going to be in a close clump. That said bird shot will spread faster as the range increases and you will lose power/penetration. I stick with 00 and don't worry about any increase in range. At inside house ranges what a shotgun has with a full power buckshot cartridge is it's ability to damage a target. 9 32 caliber balls tearing into a person at once is going to hurt.

    Agreed, certainly going to hurt.
     

    churchmouse

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    I have done the unofficial totally non-scientific testing with a 12G using various loads.
    We found #2 steel hi-velocity 3" loads to do some serious damage beyond what 00 will do. Not even suggesting that 00 is not the go to. It is. But if you want to shred something in anger try the #2 that exits at 1750 FPS from a 3" shell.

    This is of course a non-scientific non-certified result but man I tell you that load is ugly.
     
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    Beemer

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    I have done the unofficial totally non-scientific tasting with a 12G using various loads.
    We found #2 steel hi-velocity 3" loads to do some serious damage beyond what 00 will do. Not even suggesting that 00 is not the go to. It is. But if you want to shred something in anger try the #2 that exits at 1750 FPS for a 3" shell.

    This is of course a non-scientific non-certified result but man I tell you that load is ugly.

    i will have to look into those. I also have a pretty nice 1911, if you know what I mean?
     

    MCgrease08

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    I had the same mindset once because I live in an apartment with two small kids and neighbors on three sides and above. I even had an HD shotgun loaded with bird shot at one point. But a little research on the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of bird shot on a bad guy convinced me that it's not a good choice, especially against heavy clothing as others have mentioned.

    Can bird shot score a psychological stop? Sure, but so could a pellet gun. It's not something one should rely on.

    I now go with 00 buck loads in my HD shotgun.

    Over penetration is a very real issue with buck shot, as it is with a handgun or PCC. It can be mitigated somewhat by walking your space and identifying your likely shooting angles. After taking the time to do this one may want to rethink how furniture or beds are positioned to keep any intruders inside those likely shooting angles and family members out of them. One might also realize an AR with frangible ammo is a better choice for HD.

    In my personal case I used to be very apprehensive about the thought of even using a shotgun for HD, let along one loaded with 00. After walking through the likely scenarios it became clear there were only 3-4 main shooting angles I would be likely to see based on a break in. My kids beds have been positioned accordingly and we have disscussed which corner of the room they need to go to in the event of an intruder.
     

    MCgrease08

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    Any recommendations on particular 00 shells?

    You need to find a load that patterns well for your home distances in your particular gun/barrel.

    Getting suggestions off the internet is a good place to start, but you need to test them in your gun to see how the shot actually spreads and patterns at different distances in your gun.

    [video=youtube_share;V5Za7tfzJcw]http://youtu.be/V5Za7tfzJcw[/video]
     

    2A-Hoosier23

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    The opinion I have heard is that it won't penetrate walls. I agree, why? That is why I am putting this question out there.

    I did a ton of research when trying to answer your same questions for myself. Based on everything I've seen and shooting planks of wood with different loads, It is true that smaller shot penetrates less than bigger shot. Something to consider if you're concerned about overpenetration: If it's capable of killing a person, it's probably capable of overpenetrating a good amount if you miss your target and the payload hits walls before anything else. Personally, I load my HD shotgun with 27 pellet #4 buckshot. As to a recommendation on a specific load you should probably pattern several different loads at different distances and see what patterns to your liking.

    This might answer some of your questions too
    [video=youtube;CiHHgjaR0TI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiHHgjaR0TI[/video]
     

    MindfulMan

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    Uh.......why...??? If you are in fear for your life at a level you will defend then you are not wanting to **** them off. You want to stop them. Just make sure they are inside and facing you when this happens.
    I load up with #2 steel Nitro Express in 3"

    Start strong. Finish strong.

    Like bull ! :yesway:
     

    churchmouse

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    I did a ton of research when trying to answer your same questions for myself. Based on everything I've seen and shooting planks of wood with different loads, It is true that smaller shot penetrates less than bigger shot. Something to consider if you're concerned about overpenetration: If it's capable of killing a person, it's probably capable of overpenetrating a good amount if you miss your target and the payload hits walls before anything else. Personally, I load my HD shotgun with 27 pellet #4 buckshot. As to a recommendation on a specific load you should probably pattern several different loads at different distances and see what patterns to your liking.

    This might answer some of your questions too
    [video=youtube;CiHHgjaR0TI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiHHgjaR0TI[/video]

    I like #4 as well as the #2 we run. Both with shred.
     

    2A-Hoosier23

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    Oops. Wrong video, even though that one is informative... here's the one i meant to post :n00b:

    [video=youtube;zaR1EVybUgc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaR1EVybUgc[/video]
     
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