Possible case head separation?

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  • Sirshredalot

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    Hey ingo.

    I started with virgin hornady brass, now on its fifth firing, third annealing.

    It has only ever been neck sized in a lee collet die.

    I am seeing a line around the case above the webbing...it will not catch a paper clip on the inside of the case, but has me curious if i am on borrowed time.

    This is a 280 ackley and my only other option is to start fresh with new 280 rem cases(winchester brand) which means a whole new load work up before saturday(long range day)...which i dont really have time for.

    I for sure dont want a catastrophe so i am asking for opinions.

    Please and thank you
    Bless others
    Shred 20181227_140623.jpg
     

    AmmoManAaron

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    If you're willing to sacrifice one, section it and take a look. 6.5 Japanese looks like that after the very first firing, but it's a very different animal than a 280 AI that only gets neck sized...you are right to be concerned.
     

    mark40sw

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    I have not used rifles with improved chamberings so i can not give much experience info. But i would think the initial case forming will show "some" stretching in that area and then not stretch much more on subsequent firings.

    Also when measuring case neck thickness and turning case necks, i have noticed winchester brass is some of the thinnest, so other brands may last longer for you.
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    It looks like the chamber is leaving the marks, especially since you dont feel it with a paperclip.
    When you anneal how are you doing it? It looks like the necks and the top of the shoulder are black from over annealing.Are your cases glowing red / orange when you anneal?
    Is the load you are using a comfortable load or are you steaming them?
    If I cant feel a separation,, I'm not going to be concerned about it.
     

    cb46184

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    I have had experience with a case head separation with a .300 Weatherby magnum. Mine was actually caused by faulty reloading dies (coupled with my own lack of knowledge) but that is a story for another time. I will just say I would toss those cases unless I had the gauges to measure the wall thickness. Even then, the visual signs would make me reluctant to load them. A case head separation, quite possibly can turn an otherwise fun day at the range into a nightmare you will not likely forget. Just don't do it.
     

    Sirshredalot

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    I have not had to trim the cases yet, a benfit of an improved chamber.

    As for annealing, i built an annealing thingy...propane torch, case neck/should in flame tip, rotating constantly for about 4 seconds...the brass never glows...if theyre blackened its probably because i dont tumble these cases much.

    The loads are near "book max" (h4831sc, 59.5gr load, 60.5 is max)for powder charge but im running quite a bit longer than book length.
    Out of a 26 barrel they average 3080fps with a 150gr lapua scenar l.

    I am pretty sure my collet die is adjusted properly, but still have the lee lock ring on it...need to get a real lock ring...always worried theyrll move with just the o ring.

    Shred
     

    Sirshredalot

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    Sorry to bump again...

    As far as "feeling" for seperation i am just running a paper clip with a 90 degree bend down into the case...i dont feel a ridge...how should it "feel"?

    I tried a 30-06case this way and couldnt tell much difference.
     

    cb46184

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    After subsequently checking other cases from my .300 Weatherby, I couldn't detect any problems with the "paper clip" test. My solutions was to throw them all in the trash and buy new. Yes, it is THAT serious. Your cases are already showing signs of excessive stretching. What more do you need. Caution. It seems as if you are looking for "permission" from those who have had no problems. Shoot 'em if you must. but I wouldn't. If you don't have a problem, you'll say I don't know what I'm talking about. If you do have a problem, you'll wish you had paid attention. Either way, I wish you luck.
     
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    Sirshredalot

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    Well, tell me what you think.
    I chose the piece with what looked like the most pronounced markings.

    Tried to post a picture but i am exceeding somthing ingo-ish.

    I see no signs of thinning
     

    cb46184

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    Well, tell me what you think.
    I chose the piece with what looked like the most pronounced markings.

    Tried to post a picture but i am exceeding somthing ingo-ish.

    I see no signs of thinning
    You already said, and I quote "
    I am seeing a line around the case above the webbing" There's your sign. Just ignore me. I'm probably just being too cautious. I just don't want to see someone having the same catastrophic failure I experience because of my lack of knowledge reading the signs on brass cases. After all, I started reloading with my Dad at the age of 10. I am only 65 now so maybe I haven't had enough experience yet.
     
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    Sirshredalot

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    I am not disregarding your warnings or denying your experience sir.

    I am however a very skeptical and analytical person.
    If i have to know somthing, i have to know it for myself...does that make any sense?

    Taking your advice lead me to painfully(im not really cheap, just limited) sacrifice and section a piece of sized, annealed, prepped, and primed brass.

    I have seen similar marking on 40sw and 45acp, but not on rifle.

    Seeking further advice, what causes case head seperation? Ive read the reloading manuals.

    What else could cause a "false sign" if it is indeed one.

    On a sectioned case, what would brass thinning look like? I dont have a micrometer to flatten and measure this sample. I would also wish to avoid sample distortion due to flattening.

    I havent ruled out scrapping all this brass...just trying to gain some more knowledge.

    Shred
     

    natdscott

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    You already said, and I quote "
    I am seeing a line around the case above the webbing" There's your sign. Just ignore me. I'm probably just being too cautious. I just don't want to see someone having the same catastrophic failure I experience because of my lack of knowledge reading the signs on brass cases. After all, I started reloading with my Dad at the age of 10. I am only 65 now so maybe I haven't had enough experience yet.

    Easy... There was no personal affront here that I've seen.

    The gentleman here has a little bit of an odd circumstance, and he's trying to investigate all directions before he gets hypertension over the condition of the rifle and his loading practices, and before he tosses a lot of fire-formed brass.

    He's entitled to as many opinions as people will give him, and HE can sort out what to do.

    -Nate
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    I have not had to trim the cases yet, a benfit of an improved chamber.

    As for annealing, i built an annealing thingy...propane torch, case neck/should in flame tip, rotating constantly for about 4 seconds...the brass never glows...if theyre blackened its probably because i dont tumble these cases much.

    The loads are near "book max" (h4831sc, 59.5gr load, 60.5 is max)for powder charge but im running quite a bit longer than book length.
    Out of a 26 barrel they average 3080fps with a 150gr lapua scenar l.

    Shred

    Good, sounds ok to me. If I were to toss the brass I shoot that have chamber rings about the web I would be tossing buckets of brass. I have 38 special brass thats missing most of the nickel from being sized so many times, to 308 and 06 brass I shot new in the 70's that still is in use.
    If you were steaming them I would toss them after 5 or 6 loads, I shoot with guys who load cases ten times and toss and guys that load until you visually see failure.
    I myself form a lot of different cases in my 50 years of loading and forming cases, And my opinion is, if you dont feel a separation happening inside the case, there is no separation happening inside of the case.
     

    cb46184

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    Easy... There was no personal affront here that I've seen.

    The gentleman here has a little bit of an odd circumstance, and he's trying to investigate all directions before he gets hypertension over the condition of the rifle, his loading practices, or before he tosses a lot of fire-formed brass.

    He's entitled to as many opinions as people will give him, and HE can sort out what to do.

    -Nate

    I humble myself before those who obviously know much more than I. I certainly did not mean any personal affront. My opinion is what I gave and all that I gave. I consider this a very serious matter of which I have been a victim myself and I take the route of being overly cautious rather than suffering consequences for the lack of caution.. I will make no other comments as I don't want to offend anyone. As I understand, we are speaking of a cartridge that was fire formed to reduce the shoulder angle and increase the case volume. This is not the same as a straight walled case that head spaces on the cartridge rim or a standard loading that was manufactured in the intended chambering. I think that deserves more consideration as to the signs of case stretching. But, I digress. After all, I'm just a plinker.
     
    Last edited:

    AmmoManAaron

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    To put it in plain terms, a case head separation is caused by unequal stretching of the case when it is fired. On a sectioned case, there will be a ring or groove on the inside of the case. Like this:

    Severe:
    13CE91A3-56B0-49C3-B410-AE0E1E4F6B27_zpsg0nhzbap.jpg


    mild, could probably get one more load safely depending on how hot you are loading:
    maxresdefault.jpg


    As for real vs. false signs, note the difference in this picture. The incipient cracks at different locations on the cases are bright lines vs. the lower ridge where the upper part of the brass has expanded to fit the chamber, but the base of the case is thick enough that it didn't expand. 6.5 Jap and .303 Brit are well known for this because of their oversized chambers. The case third from left (.303 Brit) shows this difference the best. The two on the far left have cracks forming at or near the ridge line.
    29n9p8z-1.jpg
     

    bigedp51

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    Below are two different type .303 British cases fired in the same Enfield rifle. The Prvi Partizan case has a larger base diameter and is .010 thicker in the base web area. The Greek HXP case is a smaller base diameter and the case had further to expand to contact the chamber walls. Meaning what you are seeing is normal and will be more pronounced the small the diameter the case is at its base.

    eM3H3ls.jpg
    ruger gp100 .44 specialruger gp100 .44 special

    Below you can see where the case expanded to meet the chamber walls and the separation is above the expansion mark on the case.


    DVy4C4T.jpg


    The amount of head clearance or shoulder bump determines how much a case can stretch and thin when fired.

    sHgqVJR.gif


    I collected the British .303 Enfield rifles and used a RCBS case mastering gauge to measure case stretching and thinning in the base web area,

    CCntXIg.jpg


    The .308 cases below were fired in a brand new Savage rifle and reloaded until they failed. Again you can see the separations are above the expansion marks on the cases.

    Case head separations happen all the time and normally the most you will see is a little smoke come out of the closed action.

    TDwPD1Q.jpg


    XEuny9C.jpg
     

    Sirshredalot

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    Absolutely awesome information ingo, thanks.

    And hawkeye..i bring more than one rifle...but dont shoot for money.

    The cases in question(well..12 of them) survived another loading...other environmental causes shortened the day.

    Thanks to all
    Shred
     
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