Primer Hardness Question

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  • DoggyDaddy

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    Just curious... Are CCI 200 Large Rifle primers considered "hard"? The reason I ask is that when shooting some 8mm Lebel reloads out of one of my Berthiers on Sunday, I had many that failed to fire with what looked like light strikes. However, when I used PPU commercial rounds, they fired just fine, and the dent in the primer was much deeper. I've fired my reloads out of other Berthier rifles with no issues, so it could be a combination of primer hardness and a weaker firing pin spring on this particular rifle.

    I'm really guessing that I used the CCI primers, but it's possible I used Winchester. Those are the only two brands I have. It'd been awhile since I loaded them and I'm old, so I don't remember. :):
     

    bobjones223

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    It seems like my CCI pistol primers are on the harder side. I have had the same problem.

    My CZ ran WWB just fine with the light hammer spring but not my CCI reloads...had to put a little heavier spring it to make it 100% reliable.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    It seems like my CCI pistol primers are on the harder side. I have had the same problem.

    My CZ ran WWB just fine with the light hammer spring but not my CCI reloads...had to put a little heavier spring it to make it 100% reliable.

    I kind of thought this might be the case. I'll probably see if I can find a new firing pin spring. I've got a lot of CCI primers! :):
     

    Dean C.

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    ^^^^

    This , Federal Primers should fix the issue they are famous for being "soft" . I have had issues with CCI and Winchester primers being on the harder side with pistol caliber rounds (I don't re-load rifle)
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    Thanks guys. Unfortunately the only Federal primers I have are for pistol. Not a huge deal... it's not like I'll be shooting thousands of rounds of 8mm Lebel through this one particular rifle. Might have to save my reloads for some of my other rifles and stick with commercial for this one (or try and find another firing pin spring).
     

    AGarbers

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    Federal primers are the most popular primers of cowboy action shooters because they are softer. The competitive shooters lighten their springs to the point that other primers may not fire. All I use is Federal. Plainfield Shooting Supplies, Cabelas, and Bobcat all stock Federal, but they are hard to find even then.
     

    bigedp51

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    Measure the rim thickness of the two cases you are using, my guess is the Prvi Partizan cases have thicker rims.

    Meaning you might not have a primer hardness problem and your rifle may have excess headspace or the firing pin may not have the correct amount of protrusion.

    Measure how far the primers are protruding on your Prvi cases, then measure the rim thickness and them together and thats your rifles actual headspace.

    Below on a 30-30 depending on the rim thickness the primer can protrude from .005 to .011 and the rifle would still be within SAAMI headspace limits.

    k8Yypdz.gif
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    Also make sure you are seating those CCI's all the way in the pocket and / or that your not bumping the shoulder back to much and the case is just being driven forward when the firing pin hits the primer..
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    Measure the rim thickness of the two cases you are using, my guess is the Prvi Partizan cases have thicker rims.

    Meaning you might not have a primer hardness problem and your rifle may have excess headspace or the firing pin may not have the correct amount of protrusion.

    Measure how far the primers are protruding on your Prvi cases, then measure the rim thickness and them together and thats your rifles actual headspace.

    Below on a 30-30 depending on the rim thickness the primer can protrude from .005 to .011 and the rifle would still be within SAAMI headspace limits.

    k8Yypdz.gif

    I'm using Prvi brass for my reloads, so the cases are the same.

    Also make sure you are seating those CCI's all the way in the pocket and / or that your not bumping the shoulder back to much and the case is just being driven forward when the firing pin hits the primer..

    They seem to be fine (primer seating and cartridge shoulder). As I said, they function fine in my other Berthiers, so I truly believe it's the combination of primers and a slightly weaker firing pin spring on this rifle. Unfortunately Numrich is out of firing pin springs, and Wolff doesn't carry them. I'll either find some Federal primers, or just continue to shoot Prvi out of this one. It's not going to be shot a lot. I haven't checked anywhere else (like Liberty Tree) for firing pin springs yet.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    Federal primers are the most popular primers of cowboy action shooters because they are softer. The competitive shooters lighten their springs to the point that other primers may not fire. All I use is Federal. Plainfield Shooting Supplies, Cabelas, and Bobcat all stock Federal, but they are hard to find even then.

    That makes sense. :yesway:
     

    lovemywoods

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    I'm really guessing that I used the CCI primers, but it's possible I used Winchester. Those are the only two brands I have. It'd been awhile since I loaded them and I'm old, so I don't remember. :):

    CCI primers are silver and I believe the Winchester primers are a brass/yellow color. I believe you can then tell them apart by their colors.
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    I'm using Prvi brass for my reloads, so the cases are the same.



    They seem to be fine (primer seating and cartridge shoulder). As I said, they function fine in my other Berthiers, so I truly believe it's the combination of primers and a slightly weaker firing pin spring on this rifle. Unfortunately Numrich is out of firing pin springs, and Wolff doesn't carry them. I'll either find some Federal primers, or just continue to shoot Prvi out of this one. It's not going to be shot a lot. I haven't checked anywhere else (like Liberty Tree) for firing pin springs yet.

    And you very well might be correct, but I will ask this.
    Are all the chambers of your berthiers the same?
    I would wrap the case side of the rim with a layer of Scotch tape or a thin O ring and shoot it and see if it changes anything..
    You also could pull the spring and give it the " Kentucky Stretch " and see if that cures your problem..
    Remington primers are softer than CCI also.
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    CCI primers are silver and I believe the Winchester primers are a brass/yellow color. I believe you can then tell them apart by their colors.

    Yes and no with the Winchester primers, not so long ago when Winchester was using the white primer boxes. They were nickel plated for corrosion. They used to call them Staynless
    Primers when in the yellow box before that.
    View attachment 73483

    View attachment 73484
     

    AmmoManAaron

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    Have you checked the firing pin itself? It could have a damaged tip, and therefore be slightly shorter than normal. If the pin is fine, the spring is probably the problem...or there's dried oil/crud somewhere in the works and it's slowing things down when the trigger is pulled resulting in a lighter firing pin blow to the primer. CCI is also the hardest primer in my experience. So your problem might be a combination of little things adding up.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    And you very well might be correct, but I will ask this.
    Are all the chambers of your berthiers the same?
    I would wrap the case side of the rim with a layer of Scotch tape or a thin O ring and shoot it and see if it changes anything..
    You also could pull the spring and give it the " Kentucky Stretch " and see if that cures your problem..
    Remington primers are softer than CCI also.
    Since they're 100+ year old guns, I'm sure they're not all the same. I was thinking about doing the spring stretch. I really am starting to think it's a combination of the hard CCI primers and the spring.

    Also, I just checked, and my Winchester primers are unopened, so I definitely used the CCI.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    Have you checked the firing pin itself? It could have a damaged tip, and therefore be slightly shorter than normal. If the pin is fine, the spring is probably the problem...or there's dried oil/crud somewhere in the works and it's slowing things down when the trigger is pulled resulting in a lighter firing pin blow to the primer. CCI is also the hardest primer in my experience. So your problem might be a combination of little things adding up.
    I think the pin is fine because I got good solid dimples on the Prvi commercial primers consistently. I may try and load a few with the Winchester primers and see how they do. Everyone seems to be in agreement that CCI are hard primers, so they're my main suspect right now (in combination with the firing pin spring). That was mainly what I was wondering about (the hardness of CCI).
     
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