223 reloads problems..

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  • IcemanIND

    Plinker
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    Aug 29, 2018
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    So my friend, let's call him Bartholomew, is having some problems with his 223 ammunition.
    I went with him to the Indy1500 a year or 2 ago and he ended up buying a box of 1000 rounds of reloaded 223 from some guy that was selling reloads for $299 before taxes. (If it were me I would have bought any top tier factory ammo, preferably Lake City M193)
    I remember asking the guy at the time what the difference was between 223 and 556. He said something along the lines of "They are exactly the same except 556 has a [different] primer." Neither Bartholomew nor myself knew anything about reloading or the differences between 223 and 556 at the time, but looking back this seems not entirely correct.

    Fast forward to a few weeks ago. We went down to the range and he shot some of those reloads for the first time. He kept getting malfunctions. His BCG would get stuck in the chamber after firing a round, and he would need to hammer it loose.
    The guy that helped him at the range said this is common with shooting reloads out of some ARs, and said the headspace probably needs adjusted. I'm not sure if he was referring to the headspace on the gun(tighten or loosen barrel?) or headspace on the cartridge.

    Feeling bad that he wasn't able to properly shoot, I "lent" him one of my loaded magazines to use. No problems. Looking back, there was probably a 50/50 chance the mag I handed him was loaded with 5.56, something he probably shouldn't be using in a 223 rifle.

    I didn't think to try his ammo out of my gun, as I didn't want to damage it with potentially bad ammo.

    Is he pretty much out of luck here, or is there some kind of solution? Any ideas?
     

    gemihur

    Plinker
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    20¢ a round ain't bad .... unless it's crap!
    You can pull the bullets and use the components. .. if you had a kinetic bullet puller, a set of dies, and a press.
    might think about getting into reloading or getting a cheap .223 barrel for your contender.
    might think about getting into contenders ... or selling that reloaded ammo to someone who has one.
     

    indyjohn

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    In the trees
    The ammo is to blame. Stop worrying about .223 vs 5.56 cartridges, that is not likely the problem unless the seller truly did not know what he had and sold you 5.56 spec ammo (really, really unlikely). The cartridges were most likely not resized to the standard dimension for a common AR barrel chamber. Without getting into a long post about neck sizing vs. full length sizing and Wylde chamber dimensions, the cartridges may chamber but they wind up too large after firing. Don't shoot any more of them. Pull them apart for components.
     

    Hohn

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    The ammo is to blame. Stop worrying about .223 vs 5.56 cartridges, that is not likely the problem unless the seller truly did not know what he had and sold you 5.56 spec ammo (really, really unlikely). The cartridges were most likely not resized to the standard dimension for a common AR barrel chamber. Without getting into a long post about neck sizing vs. full length sizing and Wylde chamber dimensions, the cartridges may chamber but they wind up too large after firing. Don't shoot any more of them. Pull them apart for components.

    This. Cases were previously fired in larger chamber and not resized small enough for the gun in which they were later fired again.

    It's important to use something like the Hornady comparator to check the shoulder height of cases fired in the gun against cases you want to fire in that gun. If the spent cases aren't at least 1-2 thousandths bigger than the reloads, you'll have too little headspace and could have the kind of problems described in the OP.
     

    bgcatty

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    First rule of reloading: Do not buy or shoot other people’s reloads! You never know what you are getting. Peace. Out.
     

    JeepHammer

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    Aug 2, 2018
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    I had a guy in the shop not long ago with a round stuck in the chamber he couldn't 'Beat Out'.
    Turned out to be buckled shoulder from using a seater/roll crimp die set too deep, shoulder bend too wide to let the bolt go fully into battery, but far enough in for the bolt to lock up...

    When this happens,
    Take mag out, BOTH receiver pins out, and slide upper off lower forward (clears bolt carrier).

    Then use something like needle nose pliers to pry bolt carrier backwards from upper just behind the front take down pin lug.
    This will unlock the bolt without ripping the rim off the round.
    I use something that doesn't dig into the aluminum, even if that's just tape around the jaws of the pliers.

    Once the bolt has rotated and unlocked, THEN you try to remove the round/bolt from the chamber.
    DO NOT HAMMER!

    99% of the time the cartridge will extract with the bolt when you apply steady, even pressure.

    This guy had hammered the bolt mostly closed via the forward assist, so the case was FIRMLY planted in the chamber,
    He had ripped the rim off the cartridge,
    Then stuffed a rod down the barrel to remove the case... And promptly jammed the rod in the barrel.

    The ONLY 100% effective way to get a stuck cartridge out of an AR barrel is an adapter and grease gun.
    You simply block the gas port, pump grease down the muzzle until the cartridge & rod back out the chamber end.

    This guy complained about the bill, declined when I offered to gauge his 'Gun Show' ammo to detect problems,
    Went out to his truck and PROMPTLY jammed another round in the chamber!
    I took pity on him since I already had the tools out and removed the second cartridge (minus cleaning rod and hammering) and gauged his ammo, which stuck up more than 1/2" from a MAXIMUM case size gauge...
    Not even close to correct on side walls (case profile) or shoulder bend (flared) and WAY over crimped (bikini bullets).

    'White Box' & 'Gun Show' ammo is about half my gunsmith business these days, and fixing the home built (kitchen table & hammer) ARs is quite a bit also...
    Still the usual spradic 'Gun Broke-- Bad Gun' (usually lost or user broken parts) is about the same, just more ARs than there used to be.
    VERY FEW custom builds or accurizing work these days, most of the time when they can't hit anything they trade or sell the firearm...
    Make it someone else's problem. (Scumbags).
     

    JeepHammer

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    If you want to keep this from happening again, simply buy a case gauge.
    Once you gauge the rounds YOU make, or gauge factory rounds that fit your rifle,
    You drop it in a pocket when you head for the gun show...
    You know what will and won't fit in your rifles.

    This will give you an idea how a case gauge works,
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RuJYpm-qplQ

    Gauge some samples of the ammo to see if the loader knew what he was doing or not.

    When I sold BRASS retail, often at gun shows, I screwed gauges to chains and the chains to the table (gun shows are notorious for thievery)
    And you could gauge ANY of the brass in the bulk bin or gauge the brass in the pre-counted bags on the table.

    I got the idea from a guy that carried a gauge on his keychain, he walked up and started gauging brass since I was selling it as 'Processed' he closely inspected the primer pocket for crimp removal, cleaning, damage & gauged the brass.
    VERY smart consumer!
    We still do business to this day and have become friends.

    If you want to see the profile of the case, you can use a case profile revealing gauge.
    This allows you to visually inspect the outside of the case compared to a SAAMI maximum gauge, and it gives you a Datum Line analog to gauge the Datum Length of the case.

    Sheridan Engineering - Slotted Ammunition Gauges

    Now, if you have never heard of Datum Length, that's the distance from the Head stamp surface on the case to the Datum Line on the case.
    The firearm has 'Head Space', and only the firearm.
    The case has a Datum Length, from head (stamp) to Datum Line on the shoulder.
    You need an analog surface for the shoulder datum in the chamber to find the datum length of the case, and that's where a datum line case gauge comes in...

    DatumPoint_zps8j7sg7xk.jpg


    Once you have a datum analog to work as a stop, you can accurately measure the case Datum Length.
    Once you run some SAAMI (New) cases through the gauge, and some cases that do, more importantly DON'T fit your chamber, you will be able to 'Eyeball' cases/rounds that will fit your chamber.
     
    Last edited:

    NKBJ

    at the ark
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    This thread touches upon something that I've wondered about. Having seen "small base" dies I thought hmm, maybe that would be a good idea. But then again I've never used one. My 8x57 FN49 never failed to go bang* so I never worried about it. Do .223 / 5.56 ever really need small base dies? Is it a matter of brass over stressed in a large chamber and subsequently reloaded for a tighter chamber? Or could this be a matter of failure to trim when needed?

    *Except that one time it went full auto with 125 grainers in reduced recoil jack rabbit ack-ack loads.
     

    cmann250

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    Jan 2, 2018
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    Land of 300bu corn
    I use a small base die for 223 because I’m running my 223 through 1 Remington, 1 Colt, and 2 no-name chambers.

    Every chamber is different. Your chamber determines if it’s required.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    Aug 3, 2016
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    If you are running the same round in more than one firearm especially auto, pump or lever guns, small base dies will assure you of rounds feeding correctly in all.
    I run all 223, 308, 30.06 and 300 win that I pickup at the range through small base dies before I use them.
    A few die companies that don't make small base dies cut there regular dies the same as small base dies.
    Small base dies will bring the case to the small side of that cartridge specs.
     

    JeepHammer

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    From what I've seen/gauged,
    All 'Small Base' dies are is a little less taper in the lower end of the die body.
    The die sizes the case slightly further down the case towards the head, takes some of the lower case bloat out so it will fit in the next chamber.

    If the 'Small Base' die you get make 'Coke Bottle' rounds, then the bottom bloat is most certainly your problem.

    Before anyone springs for a 'Small Base' die, I have to recommend sticking a feeler gauge under the case, between case and case holder to give the case a 'Bump'.
    This sets the shoulder back also while taking a slight amount of bloat out to let you know if it's case bloating that's the issue.
    There is so much unsupported case in AR clones the case doesn't have to be sized all the way down, so a lot of AR clone shooters can chamber about anything...

    I roll cases between die plates,
    Case rollers like the Case Pro 100 resize the entire lower case back to SAAMI specification.
    Rollers aren't cheap, but they do straighten bent rims to serviceable condition, and they roll the case back to SAAMI size where any top down die can set the shoulder and resize the neck.

    Case-Pro 100

    I can't recommend you run out and buy a roller, the volume you would have to do as a home reloaders wouldn't make sense.
    Speed gunners, machine gunners, etc. need 100% reliability, so it might make sense there, and that's why I first got one, but now I process large volumes of brass without knowing what firearm they might be going into, so SAAMI specification on every case, every time...

    There are two big advantage to case rolling,
    One is MUCH less case lube, with lower case sides pushed back to SAAMI specs, it's basically a shoulder & neck resize.
    The second is with all the bloat taken out and pushed up the case walls, the shoulder set allows the sizer ball to drag out the excess brass very clean and you don't get the wrinkles/waves in the upper shoulder & neck.

    If you are power trimming during processing, you get very consistent length measurements, again getting a SAAMI specification case from processing that will fit any properly chambered firearm.
     
    Last edited:

    JeepHammer

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    If you are running the same round in more than one firearm especially auto, pump or lever guns, small base dies will assure you of rounds feeding correctly in all.
    I run all 223, 308, 30.06 and 300 win that I pickup at the range through small base dies before I use them.
    A few die companies that don't make small base dies cut there regular dies the same as small base dies.
    Small base dies will bring the case to the small side of that cartridge specs.

    "Small Base" dies are definitely going to make random range brass fit 'Tight' chambers more often.
    It NOT going to bring them back to SAAMI specification so they will fit everything, but 99% of the time they will do the trick.

    They are also about $1,200 cheaper than the machine that will bring the lower case back to SAAMI...
    And they fit any common press, another big selling point.

    What I find with the better grades of dies, particularly if they are sold for "Brass Case Cartridges ONLY!" they are smaller, further down rather than having to buy "Small Base" dies.
    Some dies are deliberately sloppy so aluminum & steel cases will get (more or less) resized in the same dies.

    Something no one has brought up,
    Many once fired cases will be shorter than minimum.
    New, unfired brass you load & fire will get shorter also.
    This is the lower case bloating and making the case 'Shorter'.
    It sometimes takes several firings for the case to stretch & get dragged up the neck for enough for trimming.

    ------

    While a case roller is expensive, it WILL produce brass that fits the tightest/longest chamber since the lower case is restored to SAAMI.
    The second big deal is you need very little case lube to resize brass.
    With the lower sides already smaller than most dies, the sides make very little friction in the dies, so basically it's only the shoulder needs a little lube and you are off to the races with no brass sticking in the dies.

    Like I said before,
    Speed gun guys that want 100% feeding, and a smoother feed/running firearm is faster.
    The guy that makes the Case Pro 100 actually made the machine because he ran speed guns and SAAMI specification ammo ran much better.
    I got mine a long time ago because it was the missing link in getting my speed guns running reliably & smoothly.

    Machine gun guys like case rollers because they rarely have just one, and they wanted the ammo to run smoothy in everything.

    If you all belong to a gun club or shooting club, that might be enough people to look into getting one...
     

    1775usmarine

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    Would those that dont gauge still work in a bolt action? I ran into the same problem and have roughly 300 but dont want to tear down. I've thought of getting a used 223 bolt to fire them. Once I went to a dedicated press and made some adjustments to my full length die I dont have the issue anymore.
     

    JeepHammer

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    Bolt guns often have longer, tighter chambers...
    The only advantage a bolt gun might bring to the table is you get a lot of leverage on the bolt, and that might resize the brass enough to battery/fire the round.
    It might also jam solid before the bolt locks completely...

    *IF* you just knew where the case was oversized...?
    Once loaded, the ever present danger of setting the round off.
    I've never tried to run primed brass through the roller (reducing lower case bloating) *Might* make them fit a chamber,
    But most times when they won't fit a semi-auto chamber, it's shoulder bulge from a roll crimper or the shoulder simply didn't get pushed back far enough.
    I don't know a practical, safe way to resize either of those conditions once the round is loaded.
    That's why there is a tooling/teardown press next to my progressive loader, if it doesn't fit the 'Last Word' gauge, I tear it down.

    I will admit I've used a hand priming tool to seat primers once they were loaded before.
    The primer didn't quite get seated in the progressive, and I put loaded rounds in the hand primer, held it at arms length away from me and seated the primer.
    I haven't had to do that since I stopped using the Lee Loadmaster, the Dillon seats quite well...

    But I've never tried to straighten/size a buckled shoulder with a case gauge like the guy on YouTube does.
    A case gauge on a loaded round makes a chamber, and then you bring a hammer into the mix? Sounds like you are trying real hard to blow your face or hand off to me!
    After taking a hammer to the gauge, the gauge can't be trusted anymore, it wasn't built to be hammered on.

    I will admit I've had some none too bright ideas...
    Like finishing the primer seating,
    Or pulling bullets on about 500 loaded rounds, then using the vibratory tumbler to knock compressed powder loose from the cases, primers still in the cases, but in my defense, I did run out a 50 foot extension cord into the yard just in case a primer set off the powder...
     

    JHB

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    I had this problem years ago.

    Remove all the guts from the sizing die.

    Lightly lube the bulge on the case and put the round in the press. Raise the ram to the top of the stroke.

    Screw the die in the press until you can feel it touch the case.

    Lower the ram and screw the die down 1/2 turn.

    Raise the ram to TDC.

    Remove the case and check for OAL if it is shorter STOP it won't work with that bullet.

    Check if it chambers. You can go deeper with the die if the bullet isn't being pushed into the case. Lock the die own before running the rest of batch. This should take more than one finger pressure if you need more your cases are not sized correctly
    .
     

    1775usmarine

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    I got my mistakes when changing between calibers when I use to do the work on a single stage. Looking back I probably should of loaded one caliber till I ran out of components but I use only doing 50 to 100 since I had prepped to the point of powder and bullet and was making enough for a range outing.
     
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