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  • DadSmith

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
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    Have you guys heard of this one?

    Syntech Defense provides dynamic terminal performance with a hollow-point bullet that separates into three segments and a deep-penetrating core on impact.

    https://youtu.be/N1Zdm5hVrIw

    I have used the CCI segmented 22lr on coon they drop them 1 shot every time. Tears them up good. I ask CCI to make something like that for 9mm and 45acp, and it looks like they finally have. I'll be investing in these from now on based on what I've seen the 22lr segmented do to the coon I shoot.
     

    gmcttr

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    12   0   0
    May 22, 2013
    8,596
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    Columbus
    Haven't tried it and don't know that I will but Federal did a great job with the Syntech 130 gr PCC and 150 gr Action Pistol rounds.
     

    Tactically Fat

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    22   0   0
    Oct 8, 2014
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    I'm no ballistician... But a bullet that's designed to fragment doesn't seem like it'd be good for true honest self defense.

    You want your bullet to stay together AND expand.

    Stick with proven JHP rounds for self defense.
     

    dudley0

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    99   0   0
    Mar 19, 2010
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    I'm no ballistician... But a bullet that's designed to fragment doesn't seem like it'd be good for true honest self defense.

    You want your bullet to stay together AND expand.

    Stick with proven JHP rounds for self defense.

    Amen to that. Let someone else prove the round on the streets or in the lab. Stick with a bonded JHP from a reputable manufacturer.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    22,200
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    Ripley County
    I'm no ballistician... But a bullet that's designed to fragment doesn't seem like it'd be good for true honest self defense.

    You want your bullet to stay together AND expand.

    Stick with proven JHP rounds for self defense.

    Go shoot an animal with a segmented rd vs your HP you will see a huge difference. The segmented rds kill them fast and usually 1 shot. I am thinking the same for these on bad guys. Why would it not work on humans as well as it does on animals?
     

    dudley0

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    99   0   0
    Mar 19, 2010
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    Go shoot an animal with a segmented rd vs your HP you will see a huge difference. The segmented rds kill them fast and usually 1 shot. I am thinking the same for these on bad guys. Why would it not work on humans as well as it does on animals?
    Humans are a little thicker and have better natural armor than raccoons do. Look up the FBI testing and see what they have as minimums for penetration. Also look for info published by Dr. Roberts <DocGKR> for more testing in real life scenarios.

    This round might be the best thing ever, but again why do you want to be the first one to test it in a defensive situation?
     

    Disposable Heart

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 99.6%
    246   1   1
    Apr 18, 2008
    5,805
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    Greenfield, IN
    Go shoot an animal with a segmented rd vs your HP you will see a huge difference. The segmented rds kill them fast and usually 1 shot. I am thinking the same for these on bad guys. Why would it not work on humans as well as it does on animals?

    Comparative sizing. The .22LR you're shooting a raccoon with is the rough equivalent of shooting a human with a 12 gauge slug. For the size, weight and construction of the critter, compared to our size, weight and construction.

    Humans are MUCH more robust comapred to lighter game, our bones are VERY durable and we have a physiological system of shock management, flight-or-fight and pain management that your smaller game do not have.

    I will say, while I trust your experience on segmented HP for small game, I will say that in my experience, everything I've shot with any .22LR didn't make it far or died on spot. The rapidity of their death was directly correlated to where I shot them. A gut shot on a raccoon I did some time ago at a friend's farm with a CCI Stinger made for a long death on the animal, whereas I've shot some rabbits with LRN Thunderbolts with DOA results.

    There is absolutely no correlation between a human and a small game animal, so designs revolving around disposing of small game will not translate to scaled up performance against humans or light skinned deer. If we are pulling out anecdotal stuff, I did have a friend in Pennsylvania shoot a deer with the Winchester fragmenting slug (akin to your CCI Segmented .22, about the same exact concept) and he never got to recover the animal as it ran away unfazed with a chest shot. Anecdotal evidence aside, I think it is sufficient evidence, combined with the myriad of testing and shootings done in the "light and fast" days of the 80s and more recently (Glaser slugs, AET advanced energy transfer pistol rounds, prefragmented RIP rounds, etc...) that prefragmented rounds are marginal on humans and only did shot placement or psychological trauma won those fights.

    Humans also have a nasty habit, based on our intelligence, confound the thing, of hiding behind things, operating motor vehicles, interacting with barriers, etc... that would render a prefragmented slug marginal if not completely useless. People can claim that "I'll never have a need for a barrier blind round" or similar, not understanding that things like arms, phones, other barriers other than structures or cars, an offer a intermediate barrier to prevent prefragmented slug performance.
     

    Tactically Fat

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    22   0   0
    Oct 8, 2014
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    Go shoot an animal with a segmented rd vs your HP you will see a huge difference. The segmented rds kill them fast and usually 1 shot. I am thinking the same for these on bad guys. Why would it not work on humans as well as it does on animals?

    How many medium / large game hunters will hunt with a segmenting bullet?

    Answer: Zero
     

    Disposable Heart

    Grandmaster
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    246   1   1
    Apr 18, 2008
    5,805
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    Greenfield, IN
    When I get my 350 legend I'll buy a box pull the bullet and load it up in the 350 legend shoot a deer and let you know.

    While I don't consider deer to be super durable, I think your course of action would be very painful for the deer and not very sporting. You're trying desperately to scale up a tech that feasible for small game but has been time tested to be a failure for larger critters/people due to their bone structure.

    You're going to take a round designed to fragment at 1000 FPS, load it up to nearly double that, and shoot it at relatively thicker game? Look up Glaser rounds and how people have had entire cylinders dumped into them, then subsequently beat the gun wielder with their own empty piece of weapon... Velocity has an inverse effect on penetration depth with fragmenting or prefragmented designs, making them expand/fragment faster, deposit energy too soon and lose momentum faster, not allowing for deep enough penetration to break bones, damage vital organs, etc...

    Please don't bear umbrage to what I am going to say, but: You're not reinventing the wheel and your thought process is admirable, but foolhardy. The concept of the prefragmented round has been around forever. The Quik-Shok, G2 RIP, Glaser Safety Slugs, AET rounds, etc... and you will not see a single law enforcement agency (at least one serious about their work or officer safety) or serious hunter other than rimfire shenanigans use such a round type for hunting or defense. The reasons for that are legion and myriad, sufficient penetration being a key factor. Your concept is akin to using birdshot for home defense in a shotgun and ill thought.

    Before you injure an animal unnecessarily to satisfy your experiment, back away, buy quality, TIME TESTED ammo for your intended purpose and be happy with life with a full meat freezer, not a talk with the DNR officer...
     

    DadSmith

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    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    22,200
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    Ripley County
    Did you fail to see that the majority of the round penetrated over 18" only the pedals stop at 8-10" causing more wound channels and more bleeding. Out of a faster gun it would only be deeper penetrating of the main projectile and the pedals.
     
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    Brad69

    Grandmaster
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    0   0   0
    Jul 16, 2016
    5,104
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    Perry county
    No need to pull bullets you can buy Underwood’s ammo with Lehigh controlled fracturing bullets. They seem to work well at rifle velocity dunno about at pistol speed.

    The Snytech Defense like it or hate seems to be very consistent in gel and with 3 fragments and a core is different than the glazer or the RIP.

    Don’t forget the Federal BPLE 9mm that performs like crap according to the FBI test due to fragmenting but is proven effective in the real world.

    Note:

    I defer the question of self defense ammo to our INGO expert BBI he gets paid to study gunshots.
    I value BBI’s thoughts on the subject more than even Dr. K, BBI’s experiences are real world not gel.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B61QdwI3uR0


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ijDGqYjXAiM
     

    Disposable Heart

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    246   1   1
    Apr 18, 2008
    5,805
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    Greenfield, IN
    Did you fail to see that the majority of the round penetrated over 18" only the pedals stop at 8-10" causing more wound channels and more bleeding. Out of a faster gun it would only be deeper penetrating of the main projectile and the pedals.

    I do see what the pistol round will do and I don't think you're grasping the concept correctly: Gelatin isn't bone or real tissue and it's only a comparative indicator of performance. It has only correlative bearing on real world performance, not direct bearing. That round isn't going to penetrate to 18 inches in real life.

    If you study ballistics, you'll find that increasing velocity can have a detrimental effect upon performance depending on the parameters, bullet construction, etc... Varminting bullets are an excellent example of this. Take a 55 gr JHP generic varminting bullet. Fire it at lower velocity, you are going to possibly get actual expansion, deeper penetration due to later deposit of energy. Higher velocity, you will get fragmentation, shallower penetration. Load it faster still (say 22-250), and you will get VERY shallow penetration, suitable only for varmints or light skinned critters.

    Your proposal is to take a VERY soft lead, prefragmented round, load it to 2-2.5x intended velocity (akin to my 55gr portrayal above) and expect it to not break up, or if anything, penetrate deeper. Physics and a century of round development before you have sort of debunked this already. I would posit that the fragments COULD possibly reach to same depth due to energy deposit (spending a lot of their momentum in the fragmentation process, then dumping as they lose mass), but the larger piece could very well fall shorter due to it breaking up itself or deforming more than intended.

    That component bullet from Federal is designed for a specific velocity window, with it's precuts and lead softness, to do what it does on paper. Going much faster than that is asking for physics to tear the bullet apart too quickly and with more penetration robbing deformation than it was designed for. I firmly believe that your real world performance will be severely lacking in comparison to your intended goal of cleanly and ethically taking medium game.
     

    Disposable Heart

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 99.6%
    246   1   1
    Apr 18, 2008
    5,805
    99
    Greenfield, IN
    No need to pull bullets you can buy Underwood’s ammo with Lehigh controlled fracturing bullets. They seem to work well at rifle velocity dunno about at pistol speed.

    The Snytech Defense like it or hate seems to be very consistent in gel and with 3 fragments and a core is different than the glazer or the RIP.

    Don’t forget the Federal BPLE 9mm that performs like crap according to the FBI test due to fragmenting but is proven effective in the real world.

    Note:

    I defer the question of self defense ammo to our INGO expert BBI he gets paid to study gunshots.
    I value BBI’s thoughts on the subject more than even Dr. K, BBI’s experiences are real world not gel.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B61QdwI3uR0


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ijDGqYjXAiM

    While different than Glaser or RIP, it is a similar concept: Prefragmentation. They use larger fragments, almost exactly akin to the old Quik-Shok stuff from the 90s. I cannot find pistol caliber Quik-shok anymore, so I think we know where that ended up in the shooting world. We as the shooting community have done this already. I am kinda surprised Federal would waste it's time with this, but at the pricing, it will get the lowbill crowd to buy it instead of HST because "it does great on internet gel tests". I carry what police carry, quality time tested designs, not 80s gimmicks. I have enough 80s stuff in my life, like alot of my clothes :D , I don't need anymore...

    The 9BPLE does great, not disparaging that. Barriers no so much, but does great. But it's not a fragmenting or prefragmented design, it's a standard cup and core hollow point, constructed in a time period where hollows REQUIRED the amazing speed the LE version offers to even consider expanding. Given its competitors in the time frame it was designed, it was a HUGE step up from other HP designs that didn't expand at all, required SMG/carbine legnth barrels to work (velocity) or .357 mag HPs (which 9mm gave more rounds, less recoil and easier to carry).

    I second the Barnes suggestion. That component bullet is designed to fragment, but is also designed to fragment at a velocity window and has been tested at that velocity window to perform well on medium to heavy game. Trying to adopt a pistol caliber component to operate similarly because the idea is similar to a .22LR round he shot a critter with is uncivil to the animal giving it's life so we have food. :twocents:
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    22,200
    113
    Ripley County
    I do see what the pistol round will do and I don't think you're grasping the concept correctly: Gelatin isn't bone or real tissue and it's only a comparative indicator of performance. It has only correlative bearing on real world performance, not direct bearing. That round isn't going to penetrate to 18 inches in real life.

    If you study ballistics, you'll find that increasing velocity can have a detrimental effect upon performance depending on the parameters, bullet construction, etc... Varminting bullets are an excellent example of this. Take a 55 gr JHP generic varminting bullet. Fire it at lower velocity, you are going to possibly get actual expansion, deeper penetration due to later deposit of energy. Higher velocity, you will get fragmentation, shallower penetration. Load it faster still (say 22-250), and you will get VERY shallow penetration, suitable only for varmints or light skinned critters.

    Your proposal is to take a VERY soft lead, prefragmented round, load it to 2-2.5x intended velocity (akin to my 55gr portrayal above) and expect it to not break up, or if anything, penetrate deeper. Physics and a century of round development before you have sort of debunked this already. I would posit that the fragments COULD possibly reach to same depth due to energy deposit (spending a lot of their momentum in the fragmentation process, then dumping as they lose mass), but the larger piece could very well fall shorter due to it breaking up itself or deforming more than intended.

    That component bullet from Federal is designed for a specific velocity window, with it's precuts and lead softness, to do what it does on paper. Going much faster than that is asking for physics to tear the bullet apart too quickly and with more penetration robbing deformation than it was designed for. I firmly believe that your real world performance will be severely lacking in comparison to your intended goal of cleanly and ethically taking medium game.

    That's why you test on paper targets at 100 and 200 yards to see if they fall apart or tumble etc. Not like I'm going to pop one in and run to the woods start firing. Like my 44 Magnum round I use a 180gr XTP with 000 buckshot pellet behind it. With a cardboard wad. Works great as a close in double tap load up to 10 yards. If I dont put the wad in the 000 buckshot pellet follows the path of the 180gr XTP even at 25 yards.

    That said I know how to experiment with things.

    Nothing beats a 38 special with 4 #4 buckshot for close SD work.
     

    Disposable Heart

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 99.6%
    246   1   1
    Apr 18, 2008
    5,805
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    Greenfield, IN
    That's why you test on paper targets at 100 and 200 yards to see if they fall apart or tumble etc. Not like I'm going to pop one in and run to the woods start firing. Like my 44 Magnum round I use a 180gr XTP with 000 buckshot pellet behind it. With a cardboard wad. Works great as a close in double tap load up to 10 yards. If I dont put the wad in the 000 buckshot pellet follows the path of the 180gr XTP even at 25 yards.

    That said I know how to experiment with things.

    Nothing beats a 38 special with 4 #4 buckshot for close SD work.

    I'm out... :n00b:
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    22,200
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    Ripley County
    I'm out... :n00b:

    So I'm a noob because I test everything and not accept people's opinions. You might be wrong about your opinion, I maybe wrong as well. We will see how it holds up in a 350 legend I'll report back to you if it holds together upto 100 or 200 yards. If so I'll take it on the next hunt.
     
    Last edited:
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