Reloading quandry.....

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • rb288

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Apr 14, 2019
    309
    63
    Grovertown
    I have been reloading for several years now, and have run into a conundrum.
    On my 308 loads, using 178gr AMAX bullets, and Varget powder, and a 2.800 oal, I am getting, consistently, over 50 loads, better accuracy, 1/2 moa at 100 yds, from velocities around 2100 to 2200 fps, vs 1 moa accuracy from velocities at 2400 to +2500 fps.

    My question is, which is the better load to finalize for.
    My purpose is a general purpose hunting, shooting, SD, round. I don't do a lot of "long distance" shooting, 400 to 500 yds is about my limit.
    1 moa is more than adequate for those purposes, and higher velocity does have it's advantages, but, extreme accuracy at lower velocity also, has it's benefits.

    Any thoughts from the reloading gurus here would be greatly appreciated.

    Just looking for some feedback.
    Thanks
     

    rosejm

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    11   0   0
    Nov 28, 2013
    1,775
    129
    NWI
    I think the answer to your question lies in here: "How does that 178gr AMAX bullet perform at those velocities?"

    While accuracy has its place in all forms of shooting, it's more critical to target shooting. Doesn't matter how the bullet reacts after it hits the target, when the target is paper or steel.

    However, when hunting (or SD) the bullet's terminal performance is likely more important to you. Most bullets are designed for a specific set of impact velocities: varmint, tipped, bonded, HP, etc...

    Sometimes that terminal performance varies greatly depending on the bullet design. Often shown in +P+ hollow points that are simply hotter loads vs. different HP bullet design. Lots discussed online about .223/5.56 performance out of SBRs & Pistol length barrels as well.

    Read a recent [STRIKE]article[/STRIKE] advertisement about Federal's new Terminal Ascent bullet that talks a bit about that performance vs. velocity: https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...-terminal-ascent-one-bullet-to-rule-them-all/
     

    Whip_McCord

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    May 14, 2010
    762
    63
    NWI
    Why not load both? You have a more accurate load for target shooting, using less powder, less recoil, and less wear on the gun. For hunting, use the hotter load, more "lethal" round for game. Win win.

    In my load data spreadsheet, I have lots of loads that I worked up. I have 14 loads for 38 special, depending on the use and/or gun. That's just one example. I have load data for 26 cartridges that I worked up over the years and 87 total loads. Not every situation requires the hottest load. Not every one requires the most accurate.

    If you do have two loads with the same bullet, keep the ammo boxes well marked. I also like to color code the primers or the entire head of the case with different color Sharpies. That way when the ammo is out of the box, you will not get them mixed up.
     

    avboiler11

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    13   0   0
    Jun 12, 2011
    2,950
    119
    New Albany
    While accuracy matters...2100fps is sloooooooooooooooow from a 178, even with a 16" gas gun.

    How much Varget are you using? Depending on your brass, I'd probably start at 42.5gr and work an OCW up to 44.0gr in 0.3gr increments. Once you narrow down OCW, if you don't have significant magazine constraints, I'd start tweaking OAL out by a 5 thousands toward 2.82" and I bet you'll get both accuracy and velocity.

    Or, press the easy button and switch to the 168 ELD-M and use 44.4gr Varget in Hornady brass to duplicate the Hornady 168gr TAP factory load (2640fps from a 20" 700 AAC-SD).
     

    Trapper Jim

    Master
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    22   0   0
    Dec 18, 2012
    2,676
    77
    Arcadia
    Accuracy First. Velocity Second. There is only one level of dead. Much has been played around with, marketed, created more sales and guns with Shortened faster calibers that all do the same thing. Those of us that were weaned on the standards of 22.250, .243, .270, .30-30, .308 and 45/70 all share the same theme.... consistent bullet placement first and humane kills. I have played the velocity game and it never got me anywhere but erosion. Especially in naked unlined barrels. While I will admit Australia and Sweden mAke some great powder, I still prefer USA made propellant.
     

    two70

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    19   0   0
    Feb 5, 2016
    3,724
    113
    Johnson
    I'll give you the answer that should have been the first given and only one needed but that you probably won't want to hear, work up loads with bullets better suited to your intended purposes. IMO, it is a false quandary you are holding yourself to when your chosen bullet doesn't fit your stated purposes very well in the first place.

    As to your actual question, you're talking about a 1/2 moa difference vs. a velocity low enough to court borderline bullet performance. A full 1 moa wouldn't make any practical difference at any reasonable range on a human target or any animal you are likely to hunt with .308, where as a starting velocity that low may well limit your effective range or risk a wounded animal due to poor bullet performance.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    22,183
    113
    Ripley County
    I'll give you the answer that should have been the first given and only one needed but that you probably won't want to hear, work up loads with bullets better suited to your intended purposes. IMO, it is a false quandary you are holding yourself to when your chosen bullet doesn't fit your stated purposes very well in the first place.

    As to your actual question, you're talking about a 1/2 moa difference vs. a velocity low enough to court borderline bullet performance. A full 1 moa wouldn't make any practical difference at any reasonable range on a human target or any animal you are likely to hunt with .308, where as a starting velocity that low may well limit your effective range or risk a wounded animal due to poor bullet performance.

    Why I always side with accuracy. Doesn't matter the bullet as long as you hit a vital organ the target you are shooting is going to go down.be it lungs, heart or brain.

    Thought I would edit this so you know I prefer a humanely killed animal or bad guy. Thus a good expanding deep penetrating bullet is always the best way to go.
     

    Hawkeye7br

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 9, 2015
    1,361
    67
    Terre Haute
    Handgun hunters perhaps better understand the importance of bullet expansion. I punched a doe at 15 yards. But the 7mm bullet that knocks down a 50 pound steel ram would not expand at the lower velocity from my handgun. 7mm hole going in, 7mm hole coming out after going thru both lungs. No blood trail. Lucky I found the deer. I switched to Noslers and ran faster loads and killed more deer.
     

    two70

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    19   0   0
    Feb 5, 2016
    3,724
    113
    Johnson
    Handgun hunters perhaps better understand the importance of bullet expansion. I punched a doe at 15 yards. But the 7mm bullet that knocks down a 50 pound steel ram would not expand at the lower velocity from my handgun. 7mm hole going in, 7mm hole coming out after going thru both lungs. No blood trail. Lucky I found the deer. I switched to Noslers and ran faster loads and killed more deer.

    Exactly, when shooting flesh, bullet performance is more important than extreme accuracy. A 3.5 MOA gun/load combo is still a reliable killer on deer/human sized targets out to 200 yards but a bullet that fails to expand, expands too much too quickly, or tumbles in tissue can produce a wounded animal or a dead one that is very hard to find. The goal is to produce as much damage to vital organs of your target as possible and a blood trail that is easy to follow, not to impress it with your small group size. Besides, the accuracy of the first, cold bore shot is far more important than the precision of subsequent shots(ie. group size) for hunting purposes.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    22,183
    113
    Ripley County
    I think we all should just use a 338 Lapua Magnum with 225gr SST bullets. That way it's the most humane kill possible. Maybe bump up the the 50bmg.

    Can you imagine this debate over shooting human bad guys, and having the best round possible to humanely kill said bad guy with 1 shot?
     

    two70

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    19   0   0
    Feb 5, 2016
    3,724
    113
    Johnson
    I think we all should just use a 338 Lapua Magnum with 225gr SST bullets. That way it's the most humane kill possible. Maybe bump up the the 50bmg.

    Can you imagine this debate over shooting human bad guys, and having the best round possible to humanely kill said bad guy with 1 shot?

    WTH? Don't you think that bullet terminal performance bears at least a little consideration when that bullet may be used to take a life, whether human or animal? Is it really that hard to understand that group size doesn't mean much outside of certain shooting competitions and of course, bragging on the internet? The idea that bullet performance matters is not a new or novel concept and is still relevant despite the current marketing hype and infatuation with things that actually don't matter very much.

    No need to imagine that debate, a quick search will provide you with several examples in short order... because it is a rather important subject.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    22,183
    113
    Ripley County
    WTH? Don't you think that bullet terminal performance bears at least a little consideration when that bullet may be used to take a life, whether human or animal? Is it really that hard to understand that group size doesn't mean much outside of certain shooting competitions and of course, bragging on the internet? The idea that bullet performance matters is not a new or novel concept and is still relevant despite the current marketing hype and infatuation with things that actually don't matter very much.

    No need to imagine that debate, a quick search will provide you with several examples in short order... because it is a rather important subject.
    Yes the results would be all 7.62x51 or larger calibers to humanely kill a human. With a nice expanding round. No handgun fits into that category.

    People are more concerned about an animal than a human being it seems.

    Imagine laws telling you what firearms and calibers along with bullets types you must use to humanely kill a bad guy. Right now a 22lr is okay.
     

    two70

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    19   0   0
    Feb 5, 2016
    3,724
    113
    Johnson
    I'm not even sure what you are ranting against(or for) at this point but whatever it is, it seems to have little relevance to the topic at hand. No one is talking about laws(or even calibers for that matter) but simply putting a little bit more thought into bullet performance(this applies to both rifles and handguns) instead of just raw accuracy. The vital area on humans or deer sized animals has a diameter of roughly 8", it takes a really profound lack of precision, really long range, or some combination of both before the average group size of a rifle/load combination plays any significant role in obtaining a hit or miss. Having sufficient accuracy is vital, pursuing additional accuracy to the detriment of bullet performance is counterproductive.

    On the other hand a bullet's terminal performance plays a significant role in the outcome every time the bullet encounters flesh. There's a big difference between dead quickly in a manner that makes it easy to find and dead eventually, after significant suffering, maybe to never be found. Most people prefer there prey doesn't suffer any more than necessary and that they can recover it after the shot.

    Personally, I think selecting a bullet for personal defense bears careful consideration even beyond what should go into that of selecting most hunting bullets but if someone else is willing to stake their life on some randomly or poorly selected bullet, then that is their choice. Hopefully and most likely they will never discover the consequences of their choices.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    22,183
    113
    Ripley County
    Just making fun of the best bullet possible point and belief when everything comes down to accuracy. Doesn't matter if its a 22lr solid. Ive seen guys drop deer on the spot within 75 yards with a shot through the ear or eye with a 22lr.

    Accuracy is king!
     

    Hawkeye7br

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 9, 2015
    1,361
    67
    Terre Haute
    Just making fun of the best bullet possible point and belief when everything comes down to accuracy. Doesn't matter if its a 22lr solid. Ive seen guys drop deer on the spot within 75 yards with a shot through the ear or eye with a 22lr.

    Accuracy is king!

    And yet, DNR requires a minimum caliber and case capacity. And all manufacturers of bullets include disclaimers on their match ammo that it is not intended to be used on wild game. I'm guessing there is sound reasoning behind both.
     

    Clay Pigeon

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    6   0   0
    Aug 3, 2016
    2,740
    12
    Summitville
    WTH? Don't you think that bullet terminal performance bears at least a little consideration when that bullet may be used to take a life, whether human or animal? Is it really that hard to understand that group size doesn't mean much outside of certain shooting competitions and of course, bragging on the internet? The idea that bullet performance matters is not a new or novel concept and is still relevant despite the current marketing hype and infatuation with things that actually don't matter very much.

    No need to imagine that debate, a quick search will provide you with several examples in short order... because it is a rather important subject.

    I have killed a load of animals up to coyote with centerfire 15 to 25 grain 17 caliber bullets.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    22,183
    113
    Ripley County
    And yet, DNR requires a minimum caliber and case capacity. And all manufacturers of bullets include disclaimers on their match ammo that it is not intended to be used on wild game. I'm guessing there is sound reasoning behind both.

    That reasoning is not everyone is capable of killing a deer with a 22lr. Just because the majority of hunters are not that capable doesn't mean all are. My grandfather who has passed on a combat veteran of WWII shot a lot of deer with his open sights 22lr rifle. Depredation hunting. Funny how you can use anything Depredation hunting yet must have xyz caliber and bullet during hunting season.
     

    Hawkeye7br

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 9, 2015
    1,361
    67
    Terre Haute
    To the OP...I think you're better off with 1 moa at 2500fps than 1/2 moa at 2100. You will likely be shooting at vitals somewhere between 100 & 300 yards. It won't be a perfect shot, a properly expanding bullet is important.
     
    Top Bottom