NWI 2010 Meet & Shoot End of Year Review.

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  • jedi

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    This is the post that will serve to talk about all the good, bad, and ugly things in the NWI INGO 2010 Meet & Shoots, new ideas for 2011, and what if anything we need to change.

    I have OPENED this thread because the current topic here:
    https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo..._2010_-_last_1_for_2010_a-22.html#post1450301

    Should ONLY be used for AARs of that event.


    Here are some things we need to talk about.

    1) Safety on the range
    2) Do we want to organize some type of actual shooting training
    3) Some guidelines we can agree when we have 20+, 30+, 40+ at the event.

    Please keep it civil. The goal is to make our 2011 season better than 2010, get more new shooters, and have everyone come home safely.

    --UPDATE--
    I understand this is a public forum and we have readers from all parts of the world. However, could I ask that those readers that have never attended one of these events please NOT POST OR MAKE NEGATIVE COMMENTS that only encourage flaming post to continue. If you have experience from other events and would like to share what you have done to overcome the issues we are having we would like to hear from you. Otherwise you are not helping this group attempt to address the issues we are having. Thank You!



    LIST OF POSSIBLE IDEAS BEING TALKED IN THE FOLLOWING POSTS


    • Dedicated RO for our group
    • Getting a 12 yard pistol single lane on the 25 yard range
    • Safety how do we handle it
    • Designated areas for guns + ammo, ammo alone, guns?
    • Continue the way we have; no changes
    • Stress event is more social than skills based (ie. try out a slew of guns for the first time)
    • Event designed to bring new shooters out
    • Change of location to one of the other DNR Ranges in the area
    • Put the ARs/AKs on the far right of the 25 and the handguns/.22 on the left so the empty shells on the rifles don't hit anyone.
    • handguns and .22 rifles only on the 25 yard unless you are zeroing your bigger rifle
     
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    Wild Deuce

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    Jediagh, you'll get a a PM/email from me in two days (I work tomorrow). It is good that 451_Detonics broached the subject on safety. I was extremely uncomfortable at times and since I thought I was the only one that felt that way, I thought it was best for me to leave when I did. I'm glad I was not alone. More to follow ...

    AAR: After Action Report
     

    gunbunnies

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    Well I did find problems with rifle and handgun fire right next to each other for the comfort and safety of the shooters involved and I would second that it should be kept under control in the future. The close up target stands were a issue also, although if they would have been more along the mid range distance and shot straight on it wouldn't had been a issue. The amount of shooters on the line at the same time was hard to watch for errors, and with some newer or younger shooters present it was probally not very wise to do, but overall I thought we didn't do too badly for what we were working with...

    I did not see anyone pointing a firearm at me or anyone else on the side of the firing line I was on, if I had seen such a situation take place I would have immediately stopped the session with that individual and explained what the problem was to the person commiting the act. Bad on the person that committed the unsafe act, but double bad on me for not interveneing with that situation before it becomes a accident and changes everyones lives involved.

    I've been a shooter for a long time and seen some really bad stuff over the years, so I think if any of us notice something totally unsafe on the range you should step up and let it be known to whomever is doing it... The guys on the line shooting can't see what's going on behind them or even two shooting tables over when the range has this much participation, so when you see something speak up and make it known, the life you save may be your own, or that person next to you, but you won't save anything if you don't speak up and let the cat out of the bag ...

    This event is a social event by design, I really don't expect to hone my shooting skills or test my gear while there. There is way too many people there and no control over what target is getting hit with what or who is gonna shoot what on the line while your trying to shoot a really tight group, so I come out to enjoy the time with fellow shooters, and shoot some ammo up for the fun of it.

    Maybe we should revisit the idea of having a safety person assigned to each meet and shoot event to be responsible for watching the line and keeping things under control... It wouldn't have to be the same person each time we went out there but one person that really isn't there to shoot, but to watch and make sure things are kept safe on the line as was discussed earlier this year when we started the events...

    Well that's my 2 cents worth...
     

    Bubba

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    I've read the AARs in the November thread and I'm a little concerned that it seems like things got out of hand. I know I've missed a few in a row so I can't pretend to have the whole picture, but I'm particularly concerned that we shot up the posts that hold up the plywood? It's great that we donate supplies to the range but that doesn't mean we get to blast away at whatever portion of the property we feel like. Maybe it wasn't that bad, but I got the feeling from the other thread this shoot left the place pretty beat up. Some other thoughts:

    -With as many folks as these events are starting to draw, there just has to be some sort of structure for safety. I don't relish the idea of writing a bunch of rules any more than anyone else, but I saw sloppy gun handling at the events I went to and it sounds like there was more this time. I suggest we have an RO and actually use them. Clear the line if we have to. It doesn't have to be a Kingsbury-style "every 5 minutes flash the lights and ring the buzzer" thing, but if someone needs to go downrange, firearms need to be either in a rack or on a table with actions open, and the RO needs to verify every firearm before shooters are released to go down range. I'd hate to think this would cause anyone to stop coming but if a person feels there's such a thing as "too much safety" I'm not overjoyed about sharing a range with them anyway.

    -Portable target stands just seem like a bad idea. If a short range pistol range is desired, perhaps we can work with the powers that be to donate materials for a single pistol lane such as that found at Wilbur Wright. For those who haven't been, WR has a large 25yd. bay with one single target place at approximately 12 yards. The target holder is up high to keep rounds into the berm and not the lawn.

    -I think it's awesome that Jediagh/INGO got the DNR RO a card and gift. It's really something special we have going here, both in terms of opportunities for shooters and in terms of our relationship with the DNR. I'm continually shocked at how much they are letting INGO get away with.

    I need to start making time to come back. I was disappointed that the last shoot of the year came while I'm in Texas, but I can't win 'em all. I hope to see everyone next year.
     

    Benny

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    Wow, what a train wreck...Us responsible gun owners would be a LOT better off without :poop: like this.

    (I don't think I need to quote everything from this thread for one to understand my point)
     

    Andre46996

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    Guess I am glad I got stuck working..

    I have had discussions with GOW about my feelings on these shoots.

    Hot Topics:

    1 Line is way too crowded.
    2 Benches are way too crowded.
    3 Seems as if little to none actually shooting to improve skills is done.
    4 Too many inexperienced shooters handling too many different firearms.
    5 Target free for all.
    6 General lack of safety.
    7 Did I mention OVERCROWDING!!
    8 No one person as RO, I know the RO out there and he doesn't have the time or the want to babysit us. We need a RO from the group who can and will maintain control of the line.

    I honestly think the shooting and socializing need to be separated. I enjoy the company of my fellow shooters and INGO brothers and sisters, but think it needs to be separated.

    I understand the want and need to try different firearms and that is cool. But we need some order. If there is a group of people wanting to try something form a orderly line. Away from the benches and firing line. Everyone will get a turn. You can observe from outside the confines of the benches and line.

    Just some thoughts take from it what you will. I was an observer at the August event but never made myself known or brought any firearms because I wanted to see things from afar. To an outsider we look like a bunch of unorganized and dangerous chimps playing with guns.
     

    Woodrow

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    Wow, what a train wreck...Us responsible gun owners would be a LOT better off without :poop: like this.

    (I don't think I need to quote everything from this thread for one to understand my point)

    Quote all you want. Were you there? I was. I didn't witness egregious safety issues. There were too many people at the line, the stands were stupid and I don't see it happening again, but unless others were present, how can accurate opinions be formulated. I trust the observations of those who witnessed different issues taking place, but I spent much more time chatting than shooting, and I was really looking for issues. The line was a little messy, and the target stands shouldn't have been there, but nothing catastrophic happened, because people were generally cautious.

    As to the wooden posts...NO ONE was intentionally shooting at them. Christ, the idea that we could just continually hit the posts over and over is ridiculous. These posts WILL be damaged. It's going to happen, and for that reason, WE REPLACE THEM. The fact that they are hit means nothing.

    Everyone there had fun. If you were there and observed some safety issue, it should have been brought to light when it occurred and if it wasn't, shame on you. Here we go, organizing, criticizing, and soon, someone will suggest some form of governing body for NWI INGO. At that point, I will no longer associate. There are members of this group whose company I really enjoy, but with all of this ridiculous finger-pointing? All of this arm-chair quarterbacking is really disappointing.
     
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    Benny

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    Quote all you want. Were you there? I was. I didn't witness egregious safety issues. There were too many people at the line, the stands were stupid and I don't see it happening again, but unless others were present, how can accurate opinions be formulated. I trust the observations of those who witnessed different issues taking place, but I spent much more time chatting than shooting, and I was really looking for issues. The line was a little messy, and the target stands shouldn't have been there, but nothing catastrophic happened, because people were generally cautious.

    As to the wooden posts...NO ONE was intentionally shooting at them. Christ, the idea that we could just continually hit the posts over and over is ridiculous. These posts WILL be damaged. It's going to happen, and for that reason, WE REPLACE THEM. The fact that they are hit means nothing.

    Everyone there had fun. If you were there and observed some safety issue, it should have been brought to light when it occurred and if it wasn't, shame on you. Here we go, organizing, criticizing, and soon, someone will suggest some form of governing body for NWI INGO. At that point, I will no longer associate. There are members of this group whose company I really enjoy, but with all of this ridiculous finger-pointing? All of this arm-chair quarterbacking is really disappointing.

    Nope, I wasn't there(thankfully) and didn't witness anything, so no arm chair quarterbacking from me...The quotes in this thread were enough.

    Jediagh, you'll get a a PM/email from me in two days (I work tomorrow). It is good that 451_Detonics broached the subject on safety. I was extremely uncomfortable at times and since I thought I was the only one that felt that way, I thought it was best for me to leave when I did. I'm glad I was not alone. More to follow ...

    Between the bolded part and Andre's "hot topics," I'd say the post you quoted from me still stands.



    BTW, why did you quote me instead of picking out the list of "hot topics" and explaining them?:scratch:
     

    GhostofWinter

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    I have read through all the post that have been made and I thought I would give my opinion on a few things. Safety, it should never be compromised. period. The question is how do we do this in a manner that doesn't feel or seem like we are having our hands held every step of the way Ala Kingsbury. I don't have the answer to that one honestly. I think it may take a while for us to work this one out. /I personally didn't witness any of the things that were commented on safetywise. The ONLY comment I have is that someone made a comment about they would feel better if the bolt was locked upen on the AR I had just pulled and replaced the bolt in. They watched me replace the bolt so I kinda scratched my head on that one. Kinda hard for a gun to be loaded without a magazine or bolt in the gun. :dunno:

    Ok on to the discussion about not having centerfire rifles on the 25 yrd line. I personally find this to be a very slippery and dangerous slope to tread on, and here is why I say so: The comment was made that they have no place on the 25 yrd range. Why I ask? I mean if you are trying to shoot for accuracy and good groups then by all means use the 50, 100 or 200 yrd range, but for someone that is interested in a particular model or caliber and just wants to see how it feels to shoot it I don't see any problem with shooting it at the 25 yrd range. Unless the backstops are not sufficient to handle them, which goes back to safety which is a whole different ballgame.

    The fact that now it seems that the RO is planning on talking to his boss about prohibiting large calibers at the 25 yard range makes me wonder when they will start prohibiting shotguns there as well, or anything with a bore larger than .45, or that travels faster than 1400 feet per second. Where does it end? Yes again safety is paramount, but how far is too far? :dunno:

    As for the post being shot up. I suspect that the post were pretty well shot up before we even started shooting Sunday. I mean we are in shotgun season for deer and I suspect that many a hunter came over and sighted in at the 25 yrd range as well. I noticed that one of the backstops was pretty well tore up when we started (the center plywood was pretty shot up).

    In conclusion I agree that there are areas to improve on. I also think that we have also done some things right. the key is to take the good things and continue to do those while improving on the areas of deficit.
     
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    gunbunnies

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    Guy's this was not a train wreck, and from my point of view "meaning my position on the range" there wasn't anything close to a safety problem compared too the other safety situations I have seen on these state ranges over the years. I thought overall it was not bad for as many people as we bring out at the same time. It really is a social event, not a shooting competition, or training class and it doesn't get run like one. My statements above were general in nature, and were put up to add to this thread to help us as a group to maintain a event that I believe we have grown to like to attend... Safety is always paramount when working around firearms, but knowing what the event is to be and finding the best way to empliment it is really what I think we are looking at here... If I were coming out to a competition, it wouldn't be run like this in a national scene, but we wouldn't all be meeting each other either... that said, I've attended some of the local ipsc style shoots and seen much worst as far as safety goes... If the people reading these posts feel that it wasn't a good event for all, then you got the wrong impression from the thread, it was and is a very beneficial event for all that have attended, after having a full year under our belts I think we can sit back and come up with a couple ideas to make it safer, and more enjoyeable for all that was involved or will be involved this coming summer... The damage to the back stops was only a finishing touch from our group, as they were pretty shabby by the time we had arrived... it is hunting season guys, they are getting a lot of slugs on them and it wasn't just our usage that provided that to the back stop. Anything down range is gonna get hit with something, the RO has to know that and it's a fact of putting stuff down range, actually one of the reasons you don't go down range while were shooting, cause it's gonna get hit if it's on the backstop. We are the only group that has offered backstop material replacement for the range, probally the only ones in the state at a state firing range, this doesn't give us any special rights but it just means that the backstops that they decided to use in the design of this range and get paid for by everyone in the state of Indiana through our tax money will get damaged by it's position and use and those in power know this and expect it, but we as a group go above and beyond to replace it for them... this is all we can do...

    Let's use this thread to enhance our event, and stop the oh my god they were awful people out there... Everyone that I have met at these events have been awesome people that I now treasure getting the chance to meet... I want us all too enjoy this event even more and it will have more issues as it grows this next summer, but with our ability to make input on this thread and discuss the event in a calm set of posts we should be able to pull some of the things that we can do to make it a even better event for all that are involved by sharing our ideas, and hard work to do it all again next summer.... Enough of the him, you and her did it, let's think this out and make it happen all over again for next year... any ideas ?????

    I know that was more like 4 cents worth...
     

    451_Detonics

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    I am going to respond to a few posts here...

    This event is a social event by design, I really don't expect to hone my shooting skills or test my gear while there. There is way too many people there and no control over what target is getting hit with what or who is gonna shoot what on the line while your trying to shoot a really tight group, so I come out to enjoy the time with fellow shooters, and shoot some ammo up for the fun of it.

    You made my point for me, there is sufficient target backing for a reasonable number of people to shoot at one time at their own targets and then be able to check them. If all you want to do is make noise please shoot blanks rather than my target. There is absolutely no reason we cannot shoot in relays with 8 people on the line at a time. This does not take away from the fun and would also provide a greater level of safety.

    Portable target stands just seem like a bad idea. If a short range pistol range is desired, perhaps we can work with the powers that be to donate materials for a single pistol lane such as that found at Wilbur Wright. For those who haven't been, WR has a large 25yd. bay with one single target place at approximately 12 yards. The target holder is up high to keep rounds into the berm and not the lawn.

    There is no reason why we can't have periods during the day when we allow shooters to shoot from the 15 or 10 yard line. If we set up a simple schedule of events for the day it would be easy to have different/closer ranges used.

    The fact that now it seems that the RO is planning on talking to his boss about prohibiting large calibers at the 25 yard range makes me wonder when they will start prohibiting shotguns there as well, or anything with a bore larger than .45, or that travels faster than 1400 feet per second. Where does it end? Yes again safety is paramount, but how far is too far?

    What does shooting an AR or AK or other centerfire rifle at 25 yards prove? That you can make noise? If that is your goal blanks will do the same thing cheaper. I know that those doing it had no idea how well they were shooting, I was watching and everytime someone shot a rifle it was like a mad minute in the military. I set up my CETME on the 50 and people not only enjoyed shooting it they enjoyed being able to see how well they shot it. Melonsdad did the same thing on the 100 I think and people were happy to learn how well they could shoot a group.

    The way we were acting will lead to bans on many thing listed in the quotes. Acting like responsible gun owners will prevent those bans. BTW, when Mr Kraft was conveying his concerns about the rifles on the 25 I was the one who suggested he talk to his boss about banning centerfire rifle on the 25. He though 25 was a bit close for 22 rifle but understands beginners do better at that range.

    Guy's this was not a train wreck, and from my point of view "meaning my position on the range" there wasn't anything close to a safety problem compared too the other safety situations I have seen on these state ranges over the years. I thought overall it was not bad for as many people as we bring out at the same time. It really is a social event, not a shooting competition, or training class and it doesn't get run like one.

    It doesn't need to be run like a competition but at the same time if you didn't see unsafe acts you weren't looking. I spent a majority of my time walking back and forth behind the lines trying to keep an eye on things and I did stop a few unsafe situations albeit very quietly. There is no reason a social event has to be haphazard and unsafe.

    want us all too enjoy this event even more and it will have more issues as it grows this next summer, but with our ability to make input on this thread and discuss the event in a calm set of posts we should be able to pull some of the things that we can do to make it a even better event for all that are involved by sharing our ideas, and hard work to do it all again next summer

    My impression from Mr Kraft was that one more event like this last one and we will be asked to stop holding our events there.

    I had fun, I enjoyed meeting folks, I enjoyed letting others try some of my guns in a controlled manner. I did not enjoy looking down the bore of that 500 when it was pointed at my face from 5 feet. I did not enjoy being swept with a loaded Saiga, I did not enjoy hearing gun actions being worked behind me.

    We can have just as much fun in a safe manner (personally I would have more fun) as we did the way things were done last Sunday. Even an ice cream social run by a church will have a schedule of events, doesn't keep it from being a social event.
     

    jedi

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    When I got there at 9:45AM the plywood on the 25 yard was already in bad shape. The left side one as OK but the middle and right side were badly damaged. All 6 post were also already damaged. The post appear to be the same ones that have been there all season. Not post but large square wooden bars (Clif told me the name for them but I can't remember). Yes we gave them a good beating both the post and plywood. I don't think anyone was aiming for the post otherwise they would have been gone as in fallen. But suspect that with the limited # of post the range currently has in stock and with hunting season in current swing the range probably was waiting for the post to go before changing them.
     

    Woodrow

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    The way we were acting will lead to bans on many thing listed in the quotes. Acting like responsible gun owners will prevent those bans. BTW, when Mr Kraft was conveying his concerns about the rifles on the 25 I was the one who suggested he talk to his boss about banning centerfire rifle on the 25. He though 25 was a bit close for 22 rifle but understands beginners do better at that range.

    My impression from Mr Kraft was that one more event like this last one and we will be asked to stop holding our events there.

    I didn't want to cast aspersions, but I figured someone had complained. I also thought it might have been someone from our own group. There is more to this thread than "unsafe shooting practices," to be sure. I believe that the RO was responding to "concerns" raised by an INGO member rather than any actual issues he witnessed. I question the sincerity of the concern and the motives behind it

    As a group, we have done well all year at these events, and while no activity is without risk, we have all done an excellent job minimizing potential problems. These meets are more about exposure to other shooters and other guns than actually honing one's skills.

    Going forward, there are a few minor tweaks that could be made, but all in all, these have been successful events, and I look forward to next year.
     

    451_Detonics

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    I didn't want to cast aspersions, but I figured someone had complained. I also thought it might have been someone from our own group. There is more to this thread than "unsafe shooting practices," to be sure. I believe that the RO was responding to "concerns" raised by an INGO member rather than any actual issues he witnessed. I question the sincerity of the concern and the motives behind
    Actually Mr Kraft came to me initially with his concerns about the rifles. He was very unhappy with the way rifles were being shot on the 25 and the apparent lack of safety. I merely made the suggestion of making the rule making centerfire rifle use only on the longer ranges and he agreed it was a great suggestion.

    As a group, we have done well all year at these events, and while no activity is without risk, we have all done an excellent job minimizing potential problems. These meets are more about exposure to other shooters and other guns than actually honing one's skills.
    I have not seen anything done to minimize potential problems, I have seen zero organization as far as the firing line is concerned. Personally I am surprised we didn't have an injury Sunday. While this may not be about honing skill it should still be done in a safe manner and in a way that allows those who want to improve to do so. I would think people would want to show off their skills at a social event, all that was shown off on the 25 was who could make the most noise.

    I am not saying we have to be a totally regimented and controlled group, I am saying we can have just as much fun but in a safe manner and personally I think with a little organization we could have a lot more fun.

    I also want to add that looking at the number of reps I have gotten since I originally posted I would say while a good number of people who don't want to say what I have said publicly do agree with me and I am not alone in what I have said.
     
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    sparky241

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    i agree we need a bit more order to these events but having a range Nazi walk around isnt the answer. its only going to **** people off.Safety is everyones concern and should be addressed like so. Its everyones job to stop unsafe acts.I was paying attention and did see a few things. I only seen one person sweep me with a gun and i new it was unloaded and i did ask he not do that. I did see one person shoot across the range and that did need to be addressed, I do wish that i had said something.This was actually better than what i have seen at other ranges. If you want to move centerfire rifles off the 25yd line, thats fine. allow only 22's,shotguns,and handguns then.Only have 8 people up at a time firing? i think this is a good idea.The pvc target stands need to go though. lets designate a time where everyone can move up.As far as destroying the plywood? it was destroyed when we got there, and with that comes the posts too. We go beyond what others who use the range do to make up for it,and i know if we were allowed to, we would replace the wood for them as well.I do hope this event will be safe but lets remember that this event is also there so others can tryout new guns that they are interested in. as well as a meet and greet.
     
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    451_Detonics

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    I did not address the condition of the backstop, target backers, or the posts. They are always going to be in rough shape on Sunday because the RO, Mr Kraft, is only allowed to replace them one day a week which happens to be Monday so we will always get the most used backing. Just a fact of life. I am also sure no one intentionally targeted the posts but they do get hit and I am very happy we donate new wood every month.

    I also didn't address the meet and greet aspects of the day, I think it is great we can get together and make friends. However shaking someones hand generally isn't a safety issue.

    My concerns are the firing line itself. When I get a rep like this one...

    I live 7 miles away and have been avoiding the shoots because of what I have seen personally an read here.

    I know we have a problem that needs addressed. BTW that is just one of several similar reps.
     

    turnandshoot4

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    What I saw

    THis is how I see it. Many here have GREAT points and I'd like to share my thoughts.

    1. First and formost. The range is too small. If we are going to continue having SO many people they we will have to change ranges. There was no parking for all of INGO let alone others who wanted to use the range. It would be fine if some people wanted to shoot at the 50 or 100 but EVERYONE wants to be on the 25 yard line. That can't happen. 4 shooting bays for how many people? 20? 30? Many of us can fill the entire table with just the guns one of us brought. This in itself created saftey issues. People were CREATING shooting lanes just to shoot.

    2. No, pulling the trigger as fast as you can, not aiming, is just ridiculous. No, 25 yards in NO MEASURE OF ACCURACY OF A RIFLE. Come on INGO, challenge yourself. If you just want to feel the recoil I can kick you in the shoulder. I'll even call it the .50 cal. Save you 4 bucks a round. Or you can just give me 5 bucks and I'll burn it in front of you. Because going bang isn't shooting. If that is what everyone wants we can just light off firecrackers together. Andy219 can bring a half stick of dynamite to make everyone feel like it's the shoot. This was probibly my biggest problem with the shoot. Wasting money, making noise is all that it was.

    3. I was never swept with a muzzle and never saw anyone swept. Had I seen it they would have been informed. Everyone's job is saftey.

    4. I applaud ALL INGO members that went to the 50, 100, and even 200 yard ranges. ESPECIALLY geronimojoe for a 5 shot group all touching with my M1A. It can be done, now I have work to do.

    5. This group is generous beyond belief. No one that I saw was turned down when asking to shoot a gun. Thanks to evilblackrifle for letting me shoot his USP and Sparky (? I think) for letting me shoot your guns as well! Without everyone at these shoots many would never shoot guns on their bucket list (guns to shoot before you die).
     
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