CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

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    PaulF

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    In response to the first thread getting so crowded and difficult to follow (Predict the 1st Banning for uncivil behavior in the new Religious Threads...) here is a new thread specifically to discuss aspects of this topic. As the weekend progresses I will attempt to pull the relevant bits out of the old thread and paste them into this one, in order to (attempt to) create one cohesive thread on the subject.

    Have at it, INGO:
     

    JettaKnight

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    Fine, I'll go....

    Is time travel possible in The tenets and teachings of Christianity? I say no.

    Like in the classical sci-fi sense?

    Hmm. Let me think about that one.

    Every watch the movie Primer? The could travel far in time, but it sure got crazy.

    PrimerTimeline.gif
     

    JettaKnight

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    I had a LONG car ride home with a solid atheist. He got hung up on aliens and just could not get past the fact that I don't believe they exist.

    "Well, what if aliens came and told you they have a new Bible?"
    "I don't believe in aliens."
    "What?!"
    [one hour later]
    "What if God took humans to another planet long ago and ..."
    "Shut up about the aliens already!"
     

    rambone

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    re: Praying to God's creation and other dangerous forms of idolatry

    Previously on INGO:

    I've been a Catholic all my life. I can tell you that we do not worship anyone but GOD. We honor Mary. We pray to her as well, but we do not worship her. MANY people don't understand that.

    As a bit of a complication, it is ok to pray for intercession from any loved one who has passed away and who (you think) is in Heaven. Yes, I can see how that might look like ancestor-worship, as I concede that this idea of intercession can be interpreted as you describe. It is a similar denunciation to the Mary-worship accusations.

    I can only say that it is not like that. Frankly, I think it is a part of an hidden agenda to simply have Catholics pray more. So you're all set to pray. You pray to God, the father, because He's, like, the Big Guy. Then you pray to Jesus, the Son, who knew what it was like to be human. Then you pray to the Holy Spirit, the Great Do-er of the Holy Trinity.

    Ok. We're done here, right?

    Not exactly. As a Catholic, probably helpful to do a decade of the Rosary for Mary's intercession. But wait, you're going to be felling some trees later? Not a bad idea to pray to St. John Gaulbert for his help and protection. But wait, the trees are on your deceased grandfather's property? He was a good man, hopefully he's out of purgatory. He taught you responsibility and how to work a chainsaw safely. Not a bad idea to pray for his intercession on your behalf, too.

    Before you know it, prayer-time doubled. Which is not all bad. ;)

    So, that's a bit facetious.

    The whole intercession thing is a bit of a red herring IMHO when it comes to critics of Catholicism. It is a misunderstanding (intentional or otherwise) to compare Catholicism to the pagan system. Is Catholic dogma on this point nuanced? Perhaps. But it doesn't mean the nuance can be ignored.

    Saints, or other deceased, are not idolized in the sense of being worshiped as gods. They sometimes act on behalf of God to further His will.

    Gentlemen...

    Can you provide any biblical basis for praying to Mary, or any saint, or any other creature made by God? Where has God ever condoned speaking/communing/praying to the dead? Further, what basis have you to think that God's creations have any influence over God?

    The God of the Bible does not leave any room for us to be praying to his creations. God repeatedly condemns idolatry (which is by no means limited to physical gold idols), and describes himself as jealous for our praise. "Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength," He commands in Deut 6:5. It would be difficult to argue that we should give God the leftover prayer time after we finish Hailing Mary fifty times. No, God does not share.

    Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who "consults with the dead" is "detestable to the Lord."

    If that is not compelling enough, why is there a need for anything beyond the one perfect (and explicitly named) intercessor, Jesus? Paul writes: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). If it weren't condemned already, it would certainly be insulting to Christ to turn to others to do His exclusive work.

    First, let me again preface that I do not pretend to know the will of God or how his machinations work. There are Mysteries about God that the human mind cannot fathom. This is simply my fallible understanding.

    But, your last question is the easiest to answer. Abraham and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Gen. 18: 17-33. God started at no mercy. Abraham, in a brilliant bit of negotiating, worked him down to saving the cities if he could find 10 righteous men. Abe had skeelz.

    The point being that, God has an open mind about some things. He knew there were no righteous men in the cities. But, he allowed Abraham to exercise his free will and actually try to sway God. It worked, sorta. Turns out it didn't matter, but God still moved off his "no mercy" position all the way down to 10. The needle was moved.

    Another angle on this is that certain gifts from God are bestowed upon the blessed to use as they see fit. Healings for example. God can certainly heal, and has. But, He has also allowed certain people, at certain times, to act as instruments of His healing. Would He have healed in their absence? Maybe. But, the reality* is that someone interceded and helped implement God's will.

    Granted, prayer does work, in accordance to God's will. But all the prayers of the bible are sent in one direction, straight to God. Abraham appealed directly to God, as we should do also. As much as Abraham is remembered throughout the scripture, no one in the bible communed with him after death asking that he put in a good word with God. I do not see any biblical examples of this. We are called to have a direct line of communication through prayer; a personal relationship with the Lord. Do we dare cheapen that access with middle-men?

    As for certain people being granted spiritual gifts of healing, I do not think it strengthens the case for unGodly prayer. The apostles prayed to the Lord, and used the power of His name when performing miracles. They never appealed to any patron saints of healing; never asked for intercession between themselves and God.

    And this is where the conflation starts. As Catholics, we don't pray to the saints (although laziness of language sometimes makes it sound like it). We pray for the saints to use whatever influence they might have in our favor.
    As for the rest, I can only do worse than St. Thomas Aquinas. Here's a link to a translation of a portion of Summa Theologica that addresses your points. (Kinda interesting that the same objections are being made and addressed through the passage of time.)
    SUMMA THEOLOGICA: Prayers with regard to the saints in heaven (Supplementum, Q. 72)

    The responses from the link were surprisingly light on scripture. I think the author may be grasping for straws.

    The author says: On the contrary, It is written (Job 5:1): "Call . . . if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints." The quoted text appears to be an affirmative command. But is it really? Who is speaking? What is the context? Let us open our bibles.

    Job 4-5 documents the dialogue of Eliphaz the Temanite as he rebukes Job in his time of distress. The quotation is not from God, but from a friend of Job. Further, just about every translation shows that v5:1 does not end with a question mark! I reviewed the KJV, NKJV, ASV, ISV, NIV, ESV and they all concur on this. This was not a command from God, but a question from Eliphaz -- a rhetorical question. "Call now; is there anyone who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn?" (v5:1, ESV)

    The rhetorical question was used to shake some sense into Job. Eliphaz goes on to say that Job is thinking foolishly (v5:2) and then answers his own rhetorical question with this: "But if it were I, I would appeal to God; I would lay my cause before him." (v5:8, ESV)

    You see, the verse was grammatically manipulated and taken grossly out of context to attempt to support a point. Similar abuses of scripture appeared elsewhere in the defense.
     
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    BugI02

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    I had a LONG car ride home with a solid atheist. He got hung up on aliens and just could not get past the fact that I don't believe they exist.

    "Well, what if aliens came and told you they have a new Bible?"
    "I don't believe in aliens."
    "What?!"
    [one hour later]
    "What if God took humans to another planet long ago and ..."
    "Shut up about the aliens already!"

    Did he look like this?

    View attachment 38831
     

    mbills2223

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    The Catholic Church officially entertains the possibility that there is life elsewhere in the universe if God so chose to it it there.
     

    mbills2223

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    So what? The Catholic Church entertains a lot of things I find offensive and contrary to scripture.

    So nothing. The topic of extraterrestrial life came up and I was simply stating that Christianity and extraterrestrial life are not necessarily incompatible. I've found no reason to believe that God could not have created life elsewhere in the universe.

    What else do you find offensive and contrary to scripture?
     

    rambone

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    Salvation through works instead of faith alone, an "infallible" human called the pope, praying to people instead of God, confessing sins to people instead of God, the invented idea of "Purgatory," holding human tradition up with a greater authority than the Bible... and many more. These were the among the bases for the Protestant Reformation 500 years ago. (Christians "protested" Catholicism and left the Catholic church.)

    What is the difference between Catholics and Protestants?
     

    mbills2223

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    Salvation through works instead of faith alone, an "infallible" human called the pope, praying to people instead of God, confessing sins to people instead of God, the invented idea of "Purgatory," holding human tradition up with a greater authority than the Bible... and many more. These were the among the bases for the Protestant Reformation 500 years ago.

    What is the difference between Catholics and Protestants?

    You're demonstrating a prime example of total misunderstanding of the Catholic faith :(
     
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