LEO Enounter

[Wild Deuce]

I am going to tell this tale from a first person perspective and then ask some questions afterwards. This did NOT happen to me but to someone that I know or might be related to. I am relaying the details as best as I understand them but if you need any clarification, you'll have to wait until I can talk to the person involved:

I'm out for my twice a week ruck march through the neighborhood. It's a very quiet residential part of town. It's after 1900 so the neighborhood is dark except for the usual stuff (street lights, house lights, Christmas decorations, etc). I'm wearing a pair of military camouflage pants (old style ... think 90's), black boots, and red hoodie. It's pretty foggy and temps are right around 30 so I have my balaclava on my head as well as my headphones and IPod on my chest (using it as a headlight). I have a large USGI military style rucksack with about fifty pounds of clothes/rags stuffed into it. The pack has a reflective strap affixed across the entire back of it (I don't want to get run over). I also have a farmer's walk bar that I alternate carrying in my hands or over my shoulders. By the way, the bar is spray painted white.

So ... I'm huffing it along on the street (sidewalks are a pain due to the low branches, countless bushes, vehicles in the way, and uneven pavement) when a vehicle comes up behind me. I don't turn around but make sure I'm out of the way. There's plenty of room for him to go around. Next thing I hear is the chirp of a siren and a quick flash of the lights from a police cruiser. I stop at the side of the street, take the bar off my shoulders and set it down while I pull off the headphones and pull down the balaclava off my face. The officer turns off his lights but leaves his spotlight on me and gets out.

The first thing he asks me is if I have any weapons on me. I hesitated briefly before I told him no. The only reason I hesitated was I was trying to remember if I had my pocket knife on me or not. He walks up and tells me that they received a call about a man with a rifle walking through the neighborhood. He asks me for my ID (which I produce) and then pats me down. He asked me what I was doing and I explained to him that I was planning on enlisting in the military next spring. I told him that a twice a week ruck march was part of my conditioning training and that I had been doing this regularly for the past several months. (This was my first LEO encounter, btw)

While this is going on, I notice two more police cruisers and an SUV canine unit pull up. The officers all come walking up and start making small talk (they commented that everybody is jumpy and worried about terrorism) while the original officer went to his car to check my ID. One of them picked up the ruck sack and asked me how much it weighed. They joked to each other that they should be out here doing the same type of training. The original officer comes back with my ID and tells me to have a safe evening. At this point, they leave and I continue my ruck.
​

Questions for INGO Lawyers, Cops, Libertarians, Leftists, Commies, etc. etc. ... What, if anything, would you have done different? I know there are some that would have refused to produce ID or immediately started the meeting with, "Am I being detained?" However, this interaction is taking place last night (four days after the San Bernardino terror attack). The request for ID and pat down ... legit? The original call to police was for a "man with a rifle" which could clearly be dis-proven after a few seconds of following and observing so was the officer ok to continue with a stop, request for ID, and pat down?

I have more questions but I would like see what INGO has to say ... actually, I just want to hear from Kirk, Rambone, and Kutnupe.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

His ryeits were clearly violated.

 

[SSGSAD]

JMHO, YMMV, I would NOT have worn a hoodie ..... I NEVER wear a hoodie .....

All joking aside, I would have probably been armed, so for me it would have been different .....

 

[UTL]

People say that they would refuse to identify behind a computer screen and trip all over themselves offering it up with asked for it....even when they have warrants.

 

[phylodog]

The officer had a legitimate reason to stop you at the request of whomever called in. Once he determine that you were not carrying a rifle the stop could have ended. He asked for ID, it is not unlawful or improper to ask for ID and run a check for warrants. You could have refused if that was your prerogative. I personally don't understand the opinion that providing ID in this type of situation equates to a Nazi checkpoint but some do. You provided it and were on your way without anyone being a dickhead.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The officer had a legitimate reason to stop you at the request of whomever called in. Once he determine that you were not carrying a rifle the stop could have ended. He asked for ID, it is not unlawful or improper to ask for ID and run a check for warrants. You could have refused if that was your prerogative. I personally don't understand the opinion that providing ID in this type of situation equates to a Nazi checkpoint but some do. You provided it and were on your way without anyone being a dickhead.

This leads me to a question. Is there any actual standard for checking ID, as in where in the continuum does it fall between requiring PC/RAS and going to the local mall and checking ID as fast as you can stop people in the corridor?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

What, if anything, would you have done different?

I would use the sidewalks if you truly don't want to get run over.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

The officer had a legitimate reason to stop you at the request of whomever called in. Once he determine that you were not carrying a rifle the stop could have ended. He asked for ID, it is not unlawful or improper to ask for ID and run a check for warrants. You could have refused if that was your prerogative. I personally don't understand the opinion that providing ID in this type of situation equates to a Nazi checkpoint but some do. You provided it and were on your way without anyone being a dickhead.

Actually the stoppee was required by law to provide ID in this instance. He was running in the street where a sidewalk was provided and could have been arrested for Refusal to Identify had he gone that route.

 

[Wild Deuce]

His ryeits were clearly violated.

Yeah!!! That's what I was thinkin!!!

JMHO, YMMV, I would NOT have worn a hoodie ..... I NEVER wear a hoodie .....

All joking aside, I would have probably been armed, so for me it would have been different .....

Probably ... this was in the same town where the "you people" incident occurred.

People say that they would refuse to identify behind a computer screen and trip all over themselves offering it up with asked for it....even when they have warrants.

The officer had a legitimate reason to stop you at the request of whomever called in. Once he determine that you were not carrying a rifle the stop could have ended. He asked for ID, it is not unlawful or improper to ask for ID and run a check for warrants. You could have refused if that was your prerogative. I personally don't understand the opinion that providing ID in this type of situation equates to a Nazi checkpoint but some do. You provided it and were on your way without anyone being a dickhead.

This person said that given the totality of the situation, he didn't want to be a dick or a curbside lawyer so ... he reacted the way he did and everyone was on their way in less than ten minutes. I'm as libertarian as the next guy but I can't argue with the way this played out. Sometimes police officers really are just trying to do their job right.

I would use the sidewalks if you truly don't want to get run over.

Some spots don't have sidewalks and force pedestrian traffic on to the road surface.

Actually the stoppee was required by law to provide ID in this instance. He was running in the street where a sidewalk was provided and could have been arrested for Refusal to Identify had he gone that route.

Yes ... that was discussed. Sort of the "if you don't play along, we'll throw the book at you" move. Legit but still a pain.

 

[indyjohn]

Cops doing their job. Why make it more than that? Personally, I WANT them doing this. Even if it is with me.

 

[phylodog]

This leads me to a question. Is there any actual standard for checking ID, as in where in the continuum does it fall between requiring PC/RAS and going to the local mall and checking ID as fast as you can stop people in the corridor?

I would say stopping people for the sole purpose of checking ID would be across the line. Asking for ID any time an officer has a legitimate reason for stopping someone is considered normal procedure and how many people with warrants are located.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I would say stopping people for the sole purpose of checking ID would be across the line. Asking for ID any time an officer has a legitimate reason for stopping someone is considered normal procedure and how many people with warrants are located.

Thanks!

I am a bit more focused than usual, but it hasn't quite been two weeks since I had a papier bitte stop in which a state trooper stopped me for the sole purpose of checking my license, medical certificate, truck registration, and log book (i.e., with no specific reason to do so other than that I exist). In my case, the Supreme Court ruled the last time the issue came up that since trucking is a 'highly regulated industry, there is less expectation of privacy' translated that I have fewer rights than most other people, including criminals and terrorists, by virtue of my perfectly legal occupation. That said, I wondered where the line is for everyone else. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[BugI02]

Thanks!

I am a bit more focused than usual, but it hasn't quite been two weeks since I had a papier bitte stop in which a state trooper stopped me for the sole purpose of checking my license, medical certificate, truck registration, and log book (i.e., with no specific reason to do so other than that I exist). In my case, the Supreme Court ruled the last time the issue came up that since trucking is a 'highly regulated industry, there is less expectation of privacy' translated that I have fewer rights than most other people, including criminals and terrorists, by virtue of my perfectly legal occupation. That said, I wondered where the line is for everyone else. Thanks for clarifying!

'papieren, bitte' (you had to produce more than one). If it's any consolation to you, as a pilot I can be ramp checked by the feds at any time for any reason and have to provide my 'papers'. I am also responsible for the airworthiness, and documentation of same, on my aircraft even if I have just walked out to it after renting it.

 

[Woobie]

Looks like the INGO PD and Legal team have that side of things well in hand. Let me take things from a different aspect.

Ruck marching is definitely a different type of conditioning, and running alone just won't get you close to in shape for rucking. I hate running, but I can cover ground with weight. A couple of weeks ago I rucked 40 lbs 6 miles in 72 minutes. I've had loads twice that much before going longer distances (definitely slower). It gets even more fun with a 27.6 lb machine gun. So he has the right idea. Here are some other things he might consider as training options. Hill running can help. Cycling hills will really work the quads, and can help the cardio as well. There is no substitute for actually rucking though. I won't criticize him for wanting to do it on his own time to get better, but I don't do it, mostly because I don't want to freak out the soccer moms.

I'm always armed, so I would have been armed in that situation, which would have added a bit of complexity to that situation. But I would alter my attire and route to help reduce the risk of issues.

1. Ditch the fatigues. People key in on them. Wearing jeans is too restrictive, but some sweat pants would work. Keep the boots though, your feet have to get used to those lousy issued boots. That's as important as anything. No balaclava either, I would say.

2. Find a trail, if possible, like the Cardinal Greenway or Monon to walk, instead of the street. Won't get hit by a car that way, and less interaction with skiddish people.

Assure him that in training his Drill Sergeants, no matter how they come across, are not there to break people. They will weed out the worst, push the weak, train the good, and keep a handle on the best. They will start out their rucks slow, short, and light. Maybe 2-3 miles at a 18 minute pace with 30 lbs. If he is Infantry, they'll be doing 15+ miles with 60-70 lbs plus weapons and 15 minute pace or so by the end. There will be more people fall out on the short little ones in the beginning than the long heavy ones at the end. He will get there. That's not to say be lazy, but he will make it. Spend more time running. If he gets his butt in a sling legally, he won't be shipping anyway. Play it smart. Oh, and tell him to swing his hip forward with his leg on his stride. You can get an extra foot or so for each couple of steps. It looks goofy, but it reduces your energy input per distance travelled.

 

[IndyDave1776]

'papieren, bitte' (you had to produce more than one). If it's any consolation to you, as a pilot I can be ramp checked by the feds at any time for any reason and have to provide my 'papers'. I am also responsible for the airworthiness, and documentation of same, on my aircraft even if I have just walked out to it after renting it.

One of my frustrations growing up is that I really wanted to learn German, but my mom decided that I was taking Spanish whether I liked it or not, and therefore, I walked away with a command of neither language.

When you are checked, what if any limits apply? Can they search your plane, make their own inspection, work toward making you unemployable?

 

[BugI02]

One of my frustrations growing up is that I really wanted to learn German, but my mom decided that I was taking Spanish whether I liked it or not, and therefore, I walked away with a command of neither language.

When you are checked, what if any limits apply? Can they search your plane, make their own inspection, work toward making you unemployable?

I don't make my living as a pilot so number 3 not an issue. They can search within the scope of their authority, so they couldn't open your luggage or ask for papers not germane to pilotage and airworthyness. They can inspect any system on the aircraft or cause it to be inspected by a licensed mechanic if they so desire (they foot the bill). They can pull your ticket on the spot and you have to go through the legal mill to get it back (their legal mill, hearing officers and such). They are no joke but they require a great deal of specialized knowledge so tend to be drawn from the ranks of pilots so most of them are pretty well grounded in reality. If you don't BS them they won't jerk you around.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I don't make my living as a pilot so number 3 not an issue. They can search within the scope of their authority, so they couldn't open your luggage or ask for papers not germane to pilotage and airworthyness. They can inspect any system on the aircraft or cause it to be inspected by a licensed mechanic if they so desire (they foot the bill). They can pull your ticket on the spot and you have to go through the legal mill to get it back (their legal mill, hearing officers and such). They are no joke but they require a great deal of specialized knowledge so tend to be drawn from the ranks of pilots so most of them are pretty well grounded in reality. If you don't BS them they won't jerk you around.

In my case, the officer(s) need not have any specialized training beyond being able to read, unless they are performing mechanical inspections, and even those officers are certified without any need to actually be able to operate or understand at the level of being capable of performing or correctly understanding the process of repair. The other joker in the deck is that if I get written up for anything, it automatically counts against both my personal federal score and the company's federal score, which can be used to put both out of business, and there is no due process or appeal. Even if the ticket is thrown out in court/found 'not guilty', the only way to get the negative score off my record is for the citing officer to do it himself out of the goodness of his heart. Again, there is no appeal beyond the officer's own personal good nature, which may or may not exist. It reminds me much in principle of the notion of barring people on watch lists from owning guns in the complete absence of due process.

 

[BugI02]

I had no idea it was that bad, Dave. It is very reminiscent of the No Fly List. You're guilty because we say you are.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I had no idea it was that bad, Dave. It is very reminiscent of the No Fly List. You're guilty because we say you are.

Unfortunately, this has become the standard operating procedure. Single out a group that is relatively small, lacks any strong political leverage, or both, make up invasive laws or worse yet, as in this case, 'regulations' that amount to laws which give bureaucrats a blank check to write their own law, let it stay there for a decade or two, and then when it is turned on everyone else, 'we have been doing this (in principle against small groups) for decades and it has been found acceptable in the courts, so why are you complaining?'. The icing on the cake is that most people never even suspect it is happening and think people like me are just malcontents.

 

[femurphy77]

JMHO, YMMV, I would NOT have worn a hoodie ..... I NEVER wear a hoodie .....

All joking aside, I would have probably been armed, so for me it would have been different .....

He didn't say anything about Skittles or Arizona Iced Tea so what's up with the hoodie, HATER???