Four cylinder vs six cylinder

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  • spec4

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    Just read that this is the last year Honda will offer a V-6 in the Accord. I am on my second Accord with a V-6 and love it. It has serious speed when needed. Now, all they will offer appears to be a 1.5 liter four with a turbocharger. No info on 0-60 time, etc. Not an engineer but I figure a smaller displacement engine has to work harder to do the same thing a larger displacement engine has to. The saying used to be: "there is no substitute for cubic inches". Is that no longer true? Does a turbocharger really make up for the lack of displacement all thing being equal? Honda says only ten percent of Accords are V-6. That still seems like a whole lot of cars whose owners (me included) will consider other brands the next time around.

    I think the whole move to the four cylinder turbocharged engine is driven by the ridiculous Obama regulations on fuel economy. From memory, I think that clown demanded 54 mpg by 2025.

    If you aren't a driving enthusiast and don't know or care how much power is under the hood, God love you. For me, I want the performance. Many times, the ability to accelerate out of a problem has helped me.

    How do the rest of you feel about this trend?
     

    HoughMade

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    You can't compare 4 versus 6 on just the configuration alone. It has to be a specific engine vs. specific engine comparison. Turbo 4s are the wave of the future. No appreciable lag (anymore), good power, very good part-throttle economy. Would I rather have the 2.0L turbo 4 in the Cadillac CTS at 268 hp and 22/39 mpg mpg or the V6 they used in 2008 at 258 hp and 16/25 mpg? I'll take the little 4.
     

    Rookie

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    Years ago, I had a Honda Accord with a four cylinder, and it was pretty peppy without turbo. I've driven a WRX STI, which is a turbo four cylinder and that thing was very quick. I could pretty much guarantee that turbo four would blow the doors off your V-6. I wouldn't write the new Accord off until you give it a fair shake.
     

    femurphy77

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    GF has an 06 civic wthe the 4 cylinder engine in it and it is more than adequate for that job. This is definitely not a pinto or Vega motor any more, and proper tuning, injection and a turbo and the lowly r has come a long way.
     

    dung

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    i have had a WRX and a Mazdaspeed 3. The WRX was a bit laggy, but the Speed 3 was very torquey at most normal engine speeds. Turbo 4's are quite fun. That said, my daily driver is a Mustang GT so I can't say I will take a 4 cylinder over a V8.
     

    indykid

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    With Honda always keeping things secret until release, I have seen rumors that the V6 will be replaced by a 2 liter 4. With the current level of computer control, you can now get over 300 HP out of that 2 liter. Look at the new to USA Civic Type R.

    Honda has reported that they keep boost and therefore power levels high enough to make up the difference, but low enough that they maintain the reputation for engines that live forever.

    That said, I have spent enough time running turbo charged test engines, and the majority of people will not follow procedures to save the turbo. A boosted engine is designed for boost with the engine at operating temperatures. In the winter it is important to drive easily to warm up the engine before mashing the gas. Same as cool down. After a hard drive, never turn off a boosted engine immediately after a fun run. Let it idle about 30 seconds to allow not only for the turbo to spin down, but the exhaust gas temps to come down to a level that they won't destroy the oil film supporting the turbo shaft. Many cars have gone to water cooled turbo bearings that circulate the coolant after the engine is shut down to keep the bearing cool.

    The side effect of small boosted engines is amazing fuel economy. I just bought a Honda Civic EX-T with manual transmission, and the second tankful, which is the first full tank after the delivered tank returned me 43.57 mpg which blows away the EPA numbers. And I thoroughly enjoy driving!

    So other than having to be a little more careful with a turbo, the average driver is not going to notice much difference in the Accord between the V6 and the turbo 2.0 four.
     

    jkaetz

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    Engine and transmission technology has advanced to the point where the 4 cylinder engines of today can easily compete and often times exceed the power delivery of older v6 engines. Things like variable valve timing, variable vane turbos, CV transmissions or a ridiculous number of gears all allow the engines to operate near their peak power output whenever requested. This gives the feel of more power during normal driving conditions but won't be a lot different for all out 0-60 runs. It's certainly a case of drive it to see if you like the power delivery before discounting it. I recently drove a rental 2017 chevy cruze with a tiny little turbo 4 cylinder and it was nowhere near as awful as the four cylinders of previous years. In older cars I always noticed that you could go from part throttle acceleration to full throttle acceleration with no perceptible change in the vehicle's acceleration. In other words, it was already accelerating as fast as it could at part throttle and just continued to wind the engine through the RPM range until I released the skinny pedal. The 2017 I drove would still accelerate faster if I changed throttle position mid acceleration. Mind you it was nowhere near the kick I can get out of my M6 LS3 V8 powered sedan but for what it was I couldn't complain. I think I also ended up averaging low 40 mpg with it after a couple hundred miles.

    With regards to turbos not lasting, I'm not sure the concerns of hot turbos are as large as they were in the past either. If shutting down with a hot engine (normal driving, not race track driving) were an issue I would think all of the start stop tech would destroy the oil in short order since it will shut down at every stoplight. Only time will tell if there is a statistically higher failure rate for turbo engines in the future.

    And as usual, apply all the same tech to 6 or 8 cylinder engines and you get massive performance increases over their older counterparts as well.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    With regards to turbos not lasting, I'm not sure the concerns of hot turbos are as large as they were in the past either. If shutting down with a hot engine (normal driving, not race track driving) were an issue I would think all of the start stop tech would destroy the oil in short order since it will shut down at every stoplight. Only time will tell if there is a statistically higher failure rate for turbo engines in the future.

    The issue with hot turbos is oil related, and with synthetics that's not the issue it used to be. Traditional oil sitting in a hot turbo will coke, so you needed to let the engine stay on to keep the oil flowing until the turbo cooled.
     

    1911ly

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    I have a 4 cylinder turbo PT Cruiser. The car I had before it was the non turbo version. The turbo is a peppy lil sob compared to the non turbo. If I keep my foot out of it the gas mileage is better on the turbo. It has more zip then the V6 Buick I have. It's a fun car to drive.

    I like a turbo. I would not fear buying another one. And synthetic oil is a must! And a proper cool down is necessary if you are going to beat on it. Just let it idle for a a few minutes before shutting the car off.
     

    jkaetz

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    The issue with hot turbos is oil related, and with synthetics that's not the issue it used to be. Traditional oil sitting in a hot turbo will coke, so you needed to let the engine stay on to keep the oil flowing until the turbo cooled.
    This was my understanding as well. Unless you're pulling off the highway after a high speed run and immediately shutting the engine down I would expect everything to have cooled down after a stoplight or two of normal driving.
     

    edporch

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    Personally, for a daily driver I'd go with a naturally aspirated engine with more cubic inches over a smaller turbocharged or supercharged engine. YMMV
     
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    Brandon

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    Like others have said, give it a fair chance when it is released. The only turbo 4 cylinder I have driven was a 94? mercury capri. Was pretty peppy.

    I bought a gas saving 4 banger not to long ago since I have to drive alot further to work than I use to. Cheaper than the M5 or F250 in just about every way you can imagine. Only down side is it isn't a turbo.
     

    Hop

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    <- this guy has a 2.0L 4 cylinder turbo making ~700 HP. Of course everything in the car is highly modified.
     

    DRob

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    Don't know about Honda but Ford is all over the relatively small displacement turbo engines with their Ecoboost engines. Look at their website for info on the turbo 4 cylinder in the Mustang. Around 300 HP IIRC. My 2015 F150 has the 2.7 liter Ecoboost V6. 325 HP, 375 lb/ft, getting 22 mpg around town. Turbo lag is a thing of the past. Drive that Honda before you make a decision. No doubt they are keeping up.
     

    spec4

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    Thanks for all the replies. I am smarter than I was this morning. My Accord is only three years old so it will be a while before I trade it. When I am in the market I will check out the turbo fours.

    Now, not to hijack my own thread, but why are turbos so much more popular than super chargers?
     

    HoughMade

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    They are more efficient because they use "wasted" energy as opposed to having to "rob" the energy from the crankshaft. The whole small engine-turbo trend is based upon maximizing efficiency.
     

    1DOWN4UP

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    Being Honda,I am sure they know what they are doing.For the turbo guys,you should probably unhook the coil after a oil change,crank it till the oil pressure comes up,and rehook up the coil,so as to not start it with a dry turbo.Those rpms could prematurely kill the bearings....jmo
     

    indykid

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    Being Honda,I am sure they know what they are doing.For the turbo guys,you should probably unhook the coil after a oil change,crank it till the oil pressure comes up,and rehook up the coil,so as to not start it with a dry turbo.Those rpms could prematurely kill the bearings....jmo
    :D :D :D You obviously haven't looked under the hood of a modern car. There is no such thing as a coil per say anymore. :D :D :D

    But you are correct that after an oil change it is not a bad idea to try to spin the engine without firing to get the oil pressure up. On the other hand, there are some engines that have check valves in the oil system to maintain pressure so that at fire up you already have some oil pressure for early lube.
     

    jkaetz

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    Thanks for all the replies. I am smarter than I was this morning. My Accord is only three years old so it will be a while before I trade it. When I am in the market I will check out the turbo fours.

    Now, not to hijack my own thread, but why are turbos so much more popular than super chargers?
    I'm going to say that the variable vane turbo has caused this shift. At cruise speeds and RPM, the turbo vanes can open allowing a lot of the exhaust to pass through without a lot of back pressure or boost. Superchargers do have boost bypass systems but will always have the rotational mass that needs to be turned using a bit of engine power even at light throttle applications. For all out power either will do the job. The supercharged engines will have max torque available nearly as soon as you mash the skinny pedal. The turbo will have to spool up so it will be a smoother transition even though you'll still feel the power come on pretty quickly.

    Being Honda,I am sure they know what they are doing.For the turbo guys,you should probably unhook the coil after a oil change,crank it till the oil pressure comes up,and rehook up the coil,so as to not start it with a dry turbo.Those rpms could prematurely kill the bearings....jmo
    This is a difficult thing on a modern car. To do it you'd really want to find the fuel injector/pump fuse and the ignition module fuse so that you aren't flooding the cylinders with fuel while you turn it over. I would venture to guess that no shops, dealer or independent, do this after an oil change. Today's synthetic oils likely have no problem with a few moments of low pressure after an oil change.
     
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