Discussion of establishing a Church security/safety team

[thunderchicken]

I was part of a committee to put together a church security/safety team. After some discussion with two lawyers we were advised that a formal security program opened up huge liability concerns.
In light of Sunday's event in TX, I would like to re examine ideas and policies other churches have taken. I would like to hear any input from people who serve on a security/ safety team, LE considerations (how to best direct first responders without creating more problems), legal aspects (lawyers please speak up), how to realistically harden what is a soft target, etc.
I know this can become a very wide ranging discussion but I think we can learn from each other. So let'er rip folks

 

[JettaKnight]

Our church membership is 900+ and we don't have a formal security - we do have off duty LE at normal services and events.

Beyond that, most of the deacons and other members like myself participate in in-house training with various instructors. There's probably a dozen known "carriers", and we'd like to ensure they are routinely training, so it's prudent to have on-site training that include those folks. There's no formal announcement of these events, just personal invitation.

The most likely scenario isn't a bad guy with an AK15, it's someone coming in and harassing people or causing a non-violent scene, so make sure verbal defense, including de-escalation, is part of your training.

 

[churchmouse]

As low lifes realize there may be cash on hand during or after the service this might be viewed as a soft target as well.

 

[Hoosierkav]

I'll paint this in a certain context, and I hope it comes through the text ok...

Psalm 20:7, "Some trust in chariots and some in horses,but we trust in the name of the Lord our God".

When Nehemiah was rebuilding the wall, one of the gates on the eastern wall was the horse gate--it was the gate that the horses used (obviously). But, horses were not that common back then, and when they were common, they were used as elements of war. Thus, that the holy city of Israel had a gate for its horses showed that it had its strength in what it possessed on the ground, not in the sky. Psalm 33:17, "A horse is a vain hope for deliverance;despite all its great strength it cannot save".

Churches are soft--everyone sits with their back to the door, strangers abound, and there is a large percentage of kids and elderly. Yes, you can have people that are designated as responders (whether for medical, fire, or security), and some sort of signaling method (if you have a child alerting system on the projection screen, you can use a similar code that people won't notice). You can even have people that are your armed response (probably the largest liability). Your child sign in/out program can be tight... But all of these are horses to one extent or another.

As your develop your program, remember that God is sovereign. You are priests--let God provide the army

 

[Gluemanz28]

Posting for interest.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Yeah I’ll be following along in this thread hoping to learn some things. We have a very small congregation (50-60ish), but we’re in a pretty rough, drug infested town. We don’t have any official security. There are several members that carry (including the Pastor) and we always have one posted out in the foyer. That’s about the extent of what we do for now.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

I'll paint this in a certain context, and I hope it comes through the text ok...

Psalm 20:7, "Some trust in chariots and some in horses,but we trust in the name of the Lord our God".

When Nehemiah was rebuilding the wall, one of the gates on the eastern wall was the horse gate--it was the gate that the horses used (obviously). But, horses were not that common back then, and when they were common, they were used as elements of war. Thus, that the holy city of Israel had a gate for its horses showed that it had its strength in what it possessed on the ground, not in the sky. Psalm 33:17, "A horse is a vain hope for deliverance;despite all its great strength it cannot save".

Churches are soft--everyone sits with their back to the door, strangers abound, and there is a large percentage of kids and elderly. Yes, you can have people that are designated as responders (whether for medical, fire, or security), and some sort of signaling method (if you have a child alerting system on the projection screen, you can use a similar code that people won't notice). You can even have people that are your armed response (probably the largest liability). Your child sign in/out program can be tight... But all of these are horses to one extent or another.

As your develop your program, remember that God is sovereign. You are priests--let God provide the army

God wasn't too helpful in Texas.

Ever notice how many lightning rods are on churches these days.

Believe in all the gods you want ,worship all day I don't care but don't think for an instant that any god is going to deflect a bullet for you or anyone else.

What ever happened to god helps those who help themselves.

 

[actaeon277]

Somewhere around here, there's a church security thread. It may have some info.


As for liability, you can be sued for ANYTHING.
If they make it formal, they can be sued.
If they don't, they can be sued.


So, like I used to tell one of my bosses, you're going to get screwed either way, pick the direction you think is right, and bend over.

 

[thunderchicken]

Hoosier- Nehemiah 4 also tells us that while the wall around Jerusalem was being repaired, they prayed and posted guard day and night. The bible also tells us that if you don't own a sword go sell your cloak and buy one. We are also called to be like shepherds and that involves keeping watch over the flock. I have faith in God, but I also believe he uses people to do most of the work. But I understand where you are coming from as well.

Jetta- 900+? Wow that's huge! Right now we don't have any off duty officers to help since it just isn't in the budget. But we have 5 or 6 like minded individuals and we can probably do a few training sessions to improve what we are doing.

CM- excellent point. Where our church is located can get sporty at times. And yes churches in large part are naturally soft targets.

Actaeon- I recall there was a thread previously relating to church security but when I used the search feature to look for it I got message page not found. So I just started a new thread. I will try to look it up again.

CP- we are in the same boat. Our congregation is @ 80-90 people, and we are on Indy's eastside. The neighborhood has it's share of drugs, other crimes and mental health issues.

 

[actaeon277]

Actaeon- I recall there was a thread previously relating to church security but when I used the search feature to look for it I got message page not found. So I just started a new thread. I will try to look it up again.

.

It's probably buried under years of INGO threads anyway.
So maybe a new thread was in order.
But I thought maybe it would have some info. But the info is useless if we can't find it.

 

[actaeon277]

Here are some

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...conference-oct-6th-7th-2017-%96-richmond.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/carry-issues-self-defense/437949-church-security-fail.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/tactics-training/403854-church-security-conference.html

 

[rhino]

As we're considering church security, I urge all of us to make sure you and your family are squared-away first. Prepare as much as you can, have a plan and a backup plan, make sure everyone whos is old enough to be responsible and discreet understands their role. THEN help address the security of the group with like-minded individuals.

 

[Double T]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OoTGkSNQgA&t=0s

Great video, and if you haven't,subscribe to him.

 

[thunderchicken]

As we're considering church security, I urge all of us to make sure you and your family are squared-away first. Prepare as much as you can, have a plan and a backup plan, make sure everyone whos is old enough to be responsible and discreet understands their role. THEN help address the security of the group with like-minded individuals.

Good point Rhino, I have had several conversations with my wife & kids as well as my parents and have been kicking around ideas as to who goes where/does what

 

[actaeon277]

Good point Rhino, I have had several conversations with my wife & kids as well as my parents and have been kicking around ideas as to who goes where/does what

A good idea might be to let relatives know, if your gun comes out, they need to back away and to the side from you. Cause there's a good possibility of return fire coming in your direction. And the tendency is to clump up around the defender, which they shouldn't be doing.

 

[thunderchicken]

Ok so when we decided we wanted to start a security team, we formed a small committee made up Pastor, Youth Pastor, a member that happens to be a police officer, a like minded combat vet, and myself (minimal LE experience). We had began writing policies for how to deal with medical emergency's, severe weather, fire evacuation, disruptive individuals, active shooter, and training standards. We had already had those who wanted to be armed, start meeting training standards by starting out with a basic pistol course, and a firearms laws course. That's when we were advised that we were opening a big can of legal worms in way of liability by having so many policies and written standards for volunteers. Along with the concern of who pays for training and who supplies equipment such as training ammo, carry ammo etc., and concerns regarding insurance. Seems most insurance gets wind of someone carrying a gun as a representative of an organization and they blow a gasket.
So we have essentially had to drop back and punt and start over.

 

[KokomoDave]

We have one. I helped form the team and we deal with all aspects of fire, threat, weather, etc. It co insists of the pastor, associate pastor, deacons and myself( head usher). I provide over-watch and general awareness of comings and going of flock, children and alarms.

 

[churchmouse]

Ok so when we decided we wanted to start a security team, we formed a small committee made up Pastor, Youth Pastor, a member that happens to be a police officer, a like minded combat vet, and myself (minimal LE experience). We had began writing policies for how to deal with medical emergency's, severe weather, fire evacuation, disruptive individuals, active shooter, and training standards. We had already had those who wanted to be armed, start meeting training standards by starting out with a basic pistol course, and a firearms laws course. That's when we were advised that we were opening a big can of legal worms in way of liability by having so many policies and written standards for volunteers. Along with the concern of who pays for training and who supplies equipment such as training ammo, carry ammo etc., and concerns regarding insurance. Seems most insurance gets wind of someone carrying a gun as a representative of an organization and they blow a gasket.
So we have essentially had to drop back and punt and start over.

Keep your team together but not so well documented.
Keep training. If I were to be a part of something like this I would pay my own way. Courses/classes/ammo etc.
Just refresh your views and opinions with those who are like minded in this. Know what you are doing.
Not suggesting to break out full rogue but having prepared people in the area is not a wrong thing.

 

[churchmouse]

And the doubles are back.......

 

[thunderchicken]

Keep your team together but not so well documented.
Keep training. If I were to be a part of something like this I would pay my own way. Courses/classes/ammo etc.
Just refresh your views and opinions with those who are like minded in this. Know what you are doing.
Not suggesting to break out full rogue but having prepared people in the area is not a wrong thing.

That's pretty much what the lawyer told us. Keep the basic idea and fundamentals just don't document so much. I/we need to start looking at more training. And, I think maybe quietly asking a person or two to show up on a Sun morning and report what their observations were.

Anyone have any training course recommendations?