School Zone Speed Limit Question

[ryknoll3]

Can anyone with informed knowledge on the subject tell me how Indiana interprets "children present" when it comes to school zone speed limits. I pass a school every day on my way to work, which has 20 MPH signs on each side of it. The signs are the usual that state that the speed limit applies on school days when children are present.

My question is, what does "children present" actually mean in the eyes of Indiana traffic courts? This particular school is about 50 yards from the road and there are no sidewalks along the road. Further, I never see any kids because the cars and buses drop them right off at the front door. I've literally never seen a child outside.

I'm not looking to fly through school zones, but my question was just generally, do you have to be able to see kids for them to be "present" or is the mere fact that kids are in the school building enough to consider them "present"?

 

[Dead Duck]

How much is your ticket for?

.....hypothetical of course.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

How much is your ticket for?

.....hypothetical of course.

It's that reckless driving charge that really hurts.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Present just means in the school zone, in the building counts. I can't find any case law at the moment, but it seems like there was one.

Aren't most of them going to "when flashing" now though? It eliminates that ambiguity. I think the last change also made it so there had to be an end sign for it to be a valid school zone as well, but I'd have to double check to be certain.

OK, here's the current IC:

established under this subsection is valid only if the following conditions exist:
(1) The limit is not less than twenty (20) miles per hour.
(2) The limit is imposed only in the immediate vicinity of the school.
(3) Children are present.
(4) The speed zone is properly signed.There must be:
(A) a sign located:
(i) where the reduced speed zone begins; or
(ii) as near as practical to the point where the reduced speed zone begins;
indicating the reduced speed limit; and
(B) a sign located at the end of the reduced speed zone indicating:
(i) the speed limit for the section of highway that follows; or
(ii) the end of the reduced speed zone.
(5) The Indiana department of transportation has been notified of the limit imposed by certified mail.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

Some of them have the flashing lights on timers, some are, or used to be, manual and sometimes left on all weekend. Most or all in Carmel have signs up for time, 0700-1900, plus the flashing lights where they have them. In front of the high school, at the west end, the school zone is 25mph, while the city street is 20mph, so you have to slow down again leaving the zone.

 

[Tactically Fat]

I think the last change also made it so there had to be an end sign for it to be a valid school zone.....

I think this has led to a whole heck of a lot of invalidly-given tickets within Indianapolis.

 

[Fargo]

Can anyone with informed knowledge on the subject tell me how Indiana interprets "children present" when it comes to school zone speed limits. I pass a school every day on my way to work, which has 20 MPH signs on each side of it. The signs are the usual that state that the speed limit applies on school days when children are present.

My question is, what does "children present" actually mean in the eyes of Indiana traffic courts? This particular school is about 50 yards from the road and there are no sidewalks along the road. Further, I never see any kids because the cars and buses drop them right off at the front door. I've literally never seen a child outside.

I'm not looking to fly through school zones, but my question was just generally, do you have to be able to see kids for them to be "present" or is the mere fact that kids are in the school building enough to consider them "present"?

Last time I looked it up, there wasn't any definitive answer in the Indiana case law as to what when children present exactly means. There is a case that suggests that it requires children be outside being dropped off and picked up etc., but it isn't completely clear on the matter. At least one of the local judges reads that case to require children to actually be outside. I will see if I can dig up the citation.

 

[Tactically Fat]

Last time I looked it up, there wasn't any definitive answer in the Indiana case law as to what when children present exactly means. There is a case that suggests that it requires children be outside being dropped off and picked up etc., but it isn't completely clear on the matter. At least one of the local judges reads that case to require children to actually be outside. I will see if I can dig up the citation.

Another point to argue with the vagueness of the sign: What if there are children playing in yards nearby? What if there are kids that don't go to that school who may be on a nearby sidewalk?

Definitely chalk me up in the "when children present" is way way way too vague.

 

[WebSnyper]

Present just means in the school zone, in the building counts. I can't find any case law at the moment, but it seems like there was one.

Aren't most of them going to "when flashing" now though? It eliminates that ambiguity. I think the last change also made it so there had to be an end sign for it to be a valid school zone as well, but I'd have to double check to be certain.

OK, here's the current IC:

established under this subsection is valid only if the following conditions exist:
(1) The limit is not less than twenty (20) miles per hour.
(2) The limit is imposed only in the immediate vicinity of the school.
(3) Children are present.
(4) The speed zone is properly signed.There must be:
(A) a sign located:
(i) where the reduced speed zone begins; or
(ii) as near as practical to the point where the reduced speed zone begins;
indicating the reduced speed limit; and
(B) a sign located at the end of the reduced speed zone indicating:
(i) the speed limit for the section of highway that follows; or
(ii) the end of the reduced speed zone.
(5) The Indiana department of transportation has been notified of the limit imposed by certified mail.

Yep, there are many out in Avon and Plainfield area at least without any flashers and without an end of school zone sign. I'm not sure how anyone came up with the idea to have a "zone" but not properly demark the beginning and ending of the so called zone.

 

[4651feeder]

IIRC EPD (Elkhart) got a bit overzealous back in 1976 by writing tickets for this offense over a multiple day period in one school zone long after the kids were back home eating cookies and watching afternoon cartoons which led to a number of tickets thrown out in local court.

 

[BugI02]

Another point to argue with the vagueness of the sign: What if there are children playing in yards nearby? What if there are kids that don't go to that school who may be on a nearby sidewalk?

Definitely chalk me up in the "when children present" is way way way too vague.

If you are in a residential neighborhood, as denoted by "children playing in yards nearby" and "kids ... who may be on a nearby sidewalk" would you want to be going much faster than 25mph? If it were your neighborhood, would you want the speed limit much over 25?

I live in a suburb where ALL speedlimits are 25 unless otherwise marked, and the fastest allowable limit even on collector streets is 35. 20mph IS otherwise marked with flashing lights but it is not an imposition to slow that extra 5mph and proceeding at 25 or 35 has never seemed to materially add to my commute time. For the people who don't live in my neighborhood who are rushing home; take the freeway, that's what it's there for. If you insist on speeding through residential areas, live by the sword ...

 

[eldirector]

I grew up on a street where the posted speed was 50 MPH. Managed to survive. I also do slow down if kids are out near the street. Not going to drop to 25 in a 50, but won't run 60, either.

If you want to the speed limit changed on your street, talk with your town/city/county. They typically have a process for these requests.

 

[Brandon]

Seems many people driving [strike]in a neighborhood[/strike] think 50 is the speed limit and stop signs are optional....

 

[Fargo]

Here is the case I have seen used locally to rule that children must be outside for the statute to trigger.

The State also asserts that the doctrine of sudden emergency was inapplicable because Magnuson was speeding as a matter of law, thereby creating the emergency situation. Magnuson was travelling at 36 to 40 miles per hour along a road posted with a 40 miles per hour speed limit sign. The school zone was posted for "25 miles per hour when children present." Expert testimony established that the reduced speed limit applied when children were coming to school in the morning and leaving school in the afternoon. At the time of the accident, school had reconvened after lunch and there were no children arriving at or leaving the premises. Thus Magnuson was driving at a reasonable rate of speed under the [**19] circumstances. Magnuson did not place himself in a situation of peril through his own negligence.

[h=1]State v. Magnuson, 488 N.E.2d 743[/h]

 

[ryknoll3]

Thank you! This has been interesting and helpful. This particular zone does not have the flashing lights or a sign anywhere near the end of the zone noting return to normal speed.

I haven't been ticketed here. Just wondering what the law was.

 

[Tanfodude]

I just have to ask this, was there ever an incident before that this speed limit had to be imposed? Where I came from, even as a little kid, we were thought to respect the road. Was it so bad that this law had to be in place because kids were not thought to respect the street/roads?

Arizona speed limit is like riding a bike, 15mph, that's just ridiculous. I see this as parent's inability to teach kids about the dangers and hazards when walking near the road so the gov't had to step in to solve this problem. That's why when there are problems, people expect the govt to solve their problems. I might be off base here.

 

[Cameramonkey]

On a related topic, what if there are two signs? The original time specified sign AND the new "when flashing" sign? Southbound Shadeland at the catholic school at 46th has that. They left the original sign up when they erected the flasher.

I presume since the timed sign comes first the flashers take precedence? Or do I drive 25 for that 3/4 of a block then speed up because the first sign says slow but the second sign isnt flashing? How would INGO LEOs handle it?

(this is the first sign, and you can see the flasher at the next street.)

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.844...4!1sP4NhWiI7nsls9QY5aMMhWQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


And I dont recall if it was here or the facebooks, but I heard that apparently these flashers were provided via a federal grant, but nobody thought to put maintenance into the school budgets. Ive seen a few of the signs hit, but the schools dont have it in the budget to put them back up, so they were not replaced. The school above is a prime example. There is no flasher south of the school in the northbound side. It was knocked over by a car and never replaced.

 

[CampingJosh]

If you are in a residential neighborhood, as denoted by "children playing in yards nearby" and "kids ... who may be on a nearby sidewalk" would you want to be going much faster than 25mph? If it were your neighborhood, would you want the speed limit much over 25?

It depends, really. How are the lots laid out? How far back from the road are houses? Are there sidewalks? If so, how far off the road? What barriers to visibility exist? 25 MPH is probably a good answer most of the time, but there are residential areas that could safely have highway speeds for the roads.

There's a school speed limit for South Creek Elementary on Southport Road. The school is a couple hundred yards from the road, and the playground is on the opposite side of the building. I always slow down like I'm supposed to, but it feels pretty dumb most of the time.

 

[eldirector]

Another interesting school zone situation:

Brownsburg has Harris Academy on SR267 that serves all highschool aged students. It has a standard school zone 7:30-4:30 sign out front. That school is completely empty by about 2:30, but you had BETTER slow down until 4:30, or you will get a ticket (BPD patrols for sure). Funny thing? That school zone is relatively new. The entire time that building was used for LITTLE kids (Challenger Academy), there was no school zone posted. For DECADES.

There is an elementary school on US136 just east of town (Reagan Elementary) that does NOT have a posted school zone.

I need to find the example again... I can't remember for the life of me... but there is a school here locally that has a posted school zone in one direction, but does NOT in the other direction. I'm guessing someone forgot to re-post the signs after that last paving project.

 

[Brandon]

There was a kid that ran from their bus stop back to their school some time ago. Crossing major streets to get there. How far a building sits off the road has little to do with anything. Btw this was in the pm when the child was being dropped off at home or daycare... Forget which now.