How do we make progress when they refuse to admit they are wrong??

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  • Cameramonkey

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    Just had an interesting conversation on Facebook. A dear friend who thinks "nobody needs an AR-15" posted and asked those of us on the other side to have a rational discussion about them. So I did. After posting several long posts she thanked me for taking the time to explain my side without attacking or being disrespectful and said it gave her food for thought.

    One of her friends piped up and said that we need to try more laws (paraphrased) I respectfully shot holes in her argument by pointing out we have tried laws for 30 years (GFZ act, AWB '94, etc) and none have worked. She still insisted we try more laws, even trying the same laws over again even though they didnt work the first time. This ended the conversation:

    Me: Ran across this profound quote: "To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the law abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless."
    -Lysander Spooner.

    Her: I'm sorry I think that quote is part of the problem. It's the as saying ban cars because a drunk will drive.

    Me: Exactly. You get it and agree with him. You DONT ban cars because they get abused. That is his point.

    Her: [some nonsense about apples and oranges and how she hopes these kids can spark reform ]

    Her: I thank you for being respectful but we will never agree. Have a good night.

    It reminds me of Archie Bunker agreeing wholeheartedly with something MeatHead was reading to him, but as soon as he found out the quote was from a woman/black/jew, he freaks out and starts backpedaling because he cant see himself agreeing with that person who isnt like him.

    That is what we are up against. People so hell bent on how evil guns are that they cannot be intellectually honest with themselves and be willing to change. "Guns are evil, and that is that. full stop. No matter what you say will change my mind on guns, even if I admit to agreeing with you on general principles of lawful rights and liberties. Guns are evil pure and simple, no matter what."

    Can we ever get anywhere? As my friend said when I called out her friend in a PM, "I know it is complicated. We are learning to listen to understand, rather than to respond. It makes for a more productive discussion."

    my response: "I guess the problem is, if nobody is willing to admit they are wrong and are willing to change, will we ever get anywhere?"

    That right there is the kicker and the crux of our problem in this debate.

    Trying to keep this about general unwillingness to change, not about anything political per se. Mods feel free to move if you see fit.
     
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    Double T

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    I've been having this debate with someone. He stated we needed another clinton era AWB, when I pointed out I've been saying what I've been saying since I graduated in '02, before I owned guns, he said I was simply replying with the republican and NRA rhetoric. When I said I don't really care for the NRA, he said I was closed minded.

    It's pretty hard to reason with someone with an irrational fear. We don't get people to get over phobias by telling them it'll be ok, we do it by showing.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    I've been having this debate with someone. He stated we needed another clinton era AWB, when I pointed out I've been saying what I've been saying since I graduated in '02, before I owned guns, he said I was simply replying with the republican and NRA rhetoric. When I said I don't really care for the NRA, he said I was closed minded.

    It's pretty hard to reason with someone with an irrational fear. We don't get people to get over phobias by telling them it'll be ok, we do it by showing.

    Thats my point. I showed. She agreed without realizing it. When I pointed out her agreement she backpedaled claiming apples/oranges and abruptly ended the discussion so that she didnt have to defend her now compromised position any more.

    How do you make progress when they say the sky isnt blue, and you show them a picture of the sky that they dont realize is the sky and they agree that it is blue, but when you reveal to them it IS the sky they walk away refusing to accept it?

    110% intellectual dishonesty.
     

    Double T

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    They want an open debate, but they only want to use info they provide. It's much like trying to convert the mormon's or Jehova's witnesses when they show up on your doorstep. "show me in the bible, not in your book." Much the same concept, minus the religion.
     

    Tanfodude

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    It's hard if they don't put themselves on the other side. I've had convos like these many times. I say to them that I'm not arguing to change their minds. They have to explore it themselves to see the what I've told them are true.
     

    Mr Evilwrench

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    If someone is committed enough to an opinion, as irrational as it may be, to put a statement on the public internet, there's almost no possibility of changing it. Sometimes it's best just to say to yourself, "this is for the drivebys", the people that aren't committed, that may be able to understand the superiority of an argument based on facts rather than emotion.
     

    wtburnette

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    It doesn't make any sense. A lot of these people have been spoon fed their opinions for so long that they can't imagine not being right. They're so used to not using their brains to work through the problem, but just use their feelings. "OMG, someone got hurt or killed with a gun? We have to ban them. No one should own deadly weapons." I mean, when the left is starting to remove armed police officers from places of business, you know things are pretty bad. Too many people have been indoctrinated by Hollywood and the liberal media to believe that there is nothing positive about guns. They don't see, or at least don't pay attention to any of the stories about good guys defending themselves and others, they just hear or pay attention to the tragedies.

    It would be pretty straightforward to stop, or at least greatly curtail school shootings, but that is not the goal of the left. We could have enacted laws to prevent school shootings long ago, without ever infringing on the 2nd amendment in any way, but the goal of the left is the complete confiscation of personal weapons. The agenda is never more apparent than it is now. I've heard/seen tons of politicians and pundits talking about gun control and banning this that or the other thing which infringe on our rights and take us closer to confiscation, but only a few saying anything at all that might actually prevent school shootings. The only things I've heard that move in the right direction are fixing the background check system. Everything else is AWB, or similar.

    I've posted it in other threads and I'll post it here, 4 things are needed to pretty much eliminate, or drastically reduce school shootings:

    Enact nationwide red flag laws, making sure the criteria is correct
    Fix the background check system to be accurate and have big penalties when information is not provided or followed up on appropriately
    Either keep all doors locked at schools and only buzz in and out people who should be there, and/or put metal detectors at all entrances/exits
    Let any teachers or school staff who desire carry weapons to work. They should have some sort of training class/reaction plan so they could react correctly to a situation

    That's my :twocents: on how to "fix" this problem with our country. The first two items provide screening, preventing people from owning guns who shouldn't have them. The second two items make it so that if someone somehow slips through the first two "filters", if they do manage to have weapons they shouldn't (because :poop: happens) there is warning provided that doesn't let them get very far and an armed response to ensure the nutbag doesn't harm many, or any people. In my opinion, if politicians or pundits aren't talking about something that provides a complete fix, they're just talking out their butts. An AWB, or any other gun control measures would not stop any mass shootings. They may reduce the number of people shot, but even that is doubtful. If anyone on the left is being honest, they would realize that fixing the problem has nothing to do with guns at all, but other issues like mental illness, addiction, etc.

    Bet you money though that you don't hear about a complete solution ever when you hear all of these idiots talk about how we need to ban guns... :rolleyes:
     

    SnoopLoggyDog

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    The Anti-Gunners are selling a false dream built on emotion and deception. When presented with facts, they dig their heals in, cover their ears, and reject logic as heresy to their pet agenda. In their world, they could literally outlaw "everything", if they believe it will make their world a safer place. This is how absurd and selfish their position has become.

    They are like the Temperance movement of the last century. Look how well Prohibition worked out for this country. When the booze got banned, it only made it more popular and lead to more crime and death.

    The Anti-Gun crowd keeps holding up Australia as the model for gun control. Yet when Australia conducted it's gun confiscation, the government was only able to gather up 1/3 of the total guns thought to be in the country. https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/10/australia-gun-control-obama-america/

    The real eye opener is during the 20th Century, there were an estimated 12-15 million homicides world-wide. In the same 100 year period, there were 262 MILLION people killed by their own government. https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

    Yet there is hope. The reason we keep up the good fight, is not to change the mind of an inflexible Anti-Gunner. We present these facts out in the open, in order to positively influence those in the middle ground who have not yet made up their mind.
     

    bwframe

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    The way we progress is by making sure the NRA (our voice) has more and more numbers. Sign up your friends, sign up your kids.
     

    phylodog

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    Liberals have little use for reality and even less for admitting their fabricated version of utopia is impossible. For some genuinely lack the ability to think critically, for others reality is simply too uncomfortable to bear.

    I’ve posted a lengthy explanation on my gun control stance on FB on three separate occasions asking for polite dialogue to try to find common ground. I promised to do my best to remain civil to anyone who responded if they would grant me the same consideratiom. So far I’ve had one cousin respond and mention not understanding why anyone needs certain firearms. I responded that it’s easy to hand over the rights we have no plans of taking advantage of and have the example of the necessity of owning sports cars. I remained as respectful as could be and the only response was “touché”. I love her but she’s as liberal as they come and they have no interest in being shown the truth if it doesn’t align with their beliefs.
     

    churchmouse

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    Thats my point. I showed. She agreed without realizing it. When I pointed out her agreement she backpedaled claiming apples/oranges and abruptly ended the discussion so that she didnt have to defend her now compromised position any more.

    How do you make progress when they say the sky isnt blue, and you show them a picture of the sky that they dont realize is the sky and they agree that it is blue, but when you reveal to them it IS the sky they walk away refusing to accept it?

    110% intellectual dishonesty.

    Seriously, I have been saying this for a long time. It is far easier to blame a tool. An inanimate object that can not defend itself and does not respond to name calling/tantrums and labels. We do but again it is far easier to do this than to look in a mirror and admit fault or error. It is not diff. than Politics/religion. To make a personal change is 1st...admitting you are wrong or mistaken. Not gonna happen. 2nd...to effect these personal changes requires major effert and refocusing ones mind. Again...to much work. Aint gonna happen.
     

    seedubs1

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    No use in even talking with most people. Every study says it's pretty damn impossible to change anyone's mind on this subject, even with facts. Facts don't matter.

    Honestly, I think your best bet is to take them shooting. Show them a SAFE and FUN time. That's the only thing I've ever actually seen work.
     

    wtburnette

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    No use in even talking with most people. Every study says it's pretty damn impossible to change anyone's mind on this subject, even with facts. Facts don't matter.

    Honestly, I think your best bet is to take them shooting. Show them a SAFE and FUN time. That's the only thing I've ever actually seen work.
    I like the way you think sir.

    Sent from my PURE XL using Tapatalk
     

    ChristianPatriot

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    No use in even talking with most people. Every study says it's pretty damn impossible to change anyone's mind on this subject, even with facts. Facts don't matter.

    Honestly, I think your best bet is to take them shooting. Show them a SAFE and FUN time. That's the only thing I've ever actually seen work.

    .
     

    OAK

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    The way we progress is by making sure the NRA (our voice) has more and more numbers. Sign up your friends, sign up your kids.

    Is this becoming the embedded Copy and Paste statement at INGO now? I've been gone a minute.....
     

    Leadeye

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    Meh, tell those people to dig deep to support their cause, demand that gun confiscation be featured prominently on their party's platform. I remember 1994, it was a disaster for democrats that they still haven't recovered from. Tell them that a shrill, hysterical minority always wins.
     

    wcd

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    Well, we start out by telling them, first and foremost you no longer have the right to speak. Next we explain that your 1st amendment right will now be conditional upon obtaining a permit which depending on the state in which you reside may or may not be issued. Additionally there may be an element of required training in which you will learn how to properly maintain your mouth, you will have to demonstrate a proficiency with your mouth, and opening it in a wreckless manner may result in your permit for freedom of speech being revoked. Then you go on to tell them no one needs speech that attempts to destroy peoples God Given Rights.

    But seriously I don't believe there is anything you can say to someone that refuses to even attempt to have an intelligent discussion about the root causes such as Evil exist in the world, perhaps some of the drugs being prescribed are not doing what they are supposed to.

    My 2 cents
     

    spencer rifle

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    "Widely criticized on Twitter" is now a badge of honor.

    My FB response from another thread here - sorry/not sorry if you saw it already:

    RANT: It is getting really tiring defending our Constitutional government and telling the same people the same things over and over again. Strong emotions + ignorance = bad policy. Strong emotions are understandable at the present time. I love my children and hurt for bereaved families. But ignorance? So many can’t tell an assault rifle from an “assault weapon,” “the right of the people” from the enumerated powers of the state, semi-auto from full auto, what’s required when you buy a firearm, the government definition of a machine gun, what a bump stock actually does and how you don’t need one to get the same effect, how the NRA is made up of your neighbors and is not some monolithic evil corporation, that the NRA spends less money and has less influence than unions and progressive PACs, that feet and hands kill way more people than rifles, how difficult, rare and expensive it is to own a full auto firearm, how rarely the current laws are enforced, ad nauseum.


    Negotiating from a position of ignorance is not a good place in which to put yourself. You wouldn’t dream of discussing calculus or quantum physics or organic chemistry with a practitioner of these without some knowledge of the subject (unless you are post-modernist; then it seems ignorance is a virtue). Why would you presume to make laws about things you don’t understand? That will not end well.


    A fanatic is someone who won’t change his mind and won’t change the subject. I am quite willing to change my mind if the proposed solution will: respect due process, comply with the Constitution, prevent future occurrences, and would have prevented past events if that solution was in place at the time.
     
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