Concrete expert's chime in.

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  • 42769vette

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    I realize you cant (or at least its a pain) pour concrete in cold weather. I am setting a flag pole, and ALL the concrete I pour will be 6 inch's under ground. Obviously I could care less what it looks like, it just needs to hold. I basically need to fill a hole roughly 6 feet in diameter, and 4 feet deep.

    Do I need to wait for warmer weather to pour concrete for a structural reason, or a appearance reason?
     

    jagee

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    Where are you getting your mix? Sack-crete from a hardware store?

    If so, just use warm water in your mix and you'll be fine. Hell, you'll probably be fine with cold water anyway, but warm water will definitely help.
     

    Mark-DuCo

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    I have poured a lot of concrete, but I'm not really an expert. I've always been told you can pour concrete as long as it is above freezing. Concrete generates heat as it cures so even right at freezing should be ok, especially with it being underground. If it is a pad above ground and it is cold, we always used concrete blankets to hold some of the heat in.
     

    42769vette

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    Where are you getting your mix? Sack-crete from a hardware store?

    If so, just use warm water in your mix and you'll be fine. Hell, you'll probably be fine with cold water anyway, but warm water will definitely help.


    I haven't decided yet where I'm getting the concrete from. A truck would be nice, because that's a lot of bag's, but I don't know if I can justify a truck.

    The hole doesnt need to be 6 feet in diameter, but Im digging it with a backhoe, not an auger.
     

    BigBoxaJunk

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    I haven't decided yet where I'm getting the concrete from. A truck would be nice, because that's a lot of bag's, but I don't know if I can justify a truck.

    The hole doesnt need to be 6 feet in diameter, but Im digging it with a backhoe, not an auger.

    If you're pouring a fairly big amount of concrete and if it's mostly in the ground, you should be fine to do it as long as the temps don't go too far below freezing, especially if the hole is freshly dug when you pour, and if you put down some straw or blankets for insulation on top when you're done.

    One thing to think about, if you dig a bigger hole and use a Sonotube or something that you will then back-fill around, is that the fill dirt won't give you much, if any real lateral support for a footing, and you'll probably need a heavier footing to hold a large flag pole.
     

    Outlaw

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    I drive a concrete truck and it It's very doable. We have additives we put in for the winter. Would be very easy for you since it doesn't have to be finished. Call IMI and get a quote.
     

    jagee

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    Yeah, if you're using a ready mix supplier (like IMI or someone else) then there is no problem. Call 'em up, order your mud, they show up 30 minutes after the scheduled pour time :):
     

    Fargo

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    Concrete actually generates heat as it cures and unless you are pouring into frozen ground at way cold temps, I doubt you end up with anything but a cosmetic problem. Since it sounds like you are way over pouring and burying it, I'm pretty sure you are fine. I would pour as quickly after digging as posssible if air temps are low so the ground in your hole doesn't freeze. The low temp will cause it to cure slower, but will actually result in a higher psi strength finished product as strength increases with slower curing.

    You could also put a poly tent over it and a small propane heater, although a ventless heater can also cause cosmetic issues from the combustion byproducts. It has been years since I did concrete professionally and in truth I hated it, but it was also in North Dakota so we did have to deal with cold weather occasionally (when I was stupid enough to get involved in that work in the winter).

    I seem to recall you can also order a low temp mix which has an additive which will lower freezing point below the 29 degrees or so I remember standard mix having. Doubt it is necessary though.
     
    Last edited:

    CountryBoy19

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    IIRC, the concern is with ice-crystals developing before curing. IMHO, anything going in the ground will be fine even into some seriously low temps as long as A) you cover it (dirt, blanket, etc) and B) You didn't dig the hole 3 weeks ago and we just got done with a cold-snap that has brought ground-temp down to well below freezing (IE, can the frozen ground suck enough heat out of the concrete to cause it to freeze?)

    That being said, 6' diameter 4 feet deep, you would be a fool to even try mixing that yourself. BTDT. My dad thought he was going to save some coin when he put up a TV tower years ago. The hole was a hand-dug, triangular hole 3' on the sides and 4 feet deep. He figured a few hrs of mixing and pouring was all it would take. It took 8 hrs of mixing concrete (in a job-site type mixer) and he said he'll NEVER do that again. Your hole is bigger yet... Do the math, 6' diameter 4' deep is over 4 yards of concrete. First of all, how freakin' big is that flag pole? Are you sure you need that much? That's 17,000 lbs of cured concrete; quite an anchor. Second, IIRC, normal concrete trucks don't hold much over 7 or 8 yds I think so you're well into the range of what is considered a normal truck-load...
     

    42769vette

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    IIRC, the concern is with ice-crystals developing before curing. IMHO, anything going in the ground will be fine even into some seriously low temps as long as A) you cover it (dirt, blanket, etc) and B) You didn't dig the hole 3 weeks ago and we just got done with a cold-snap that has brought ground-temp down to well below freezing (IE, can the frozen ground suck enough heat out of the concrete to cause it to freeze?)

    That being said, 6' diameter 4 feet deep, you would be a fool to even try mixing that yourself. BTDT. My dad thought he was going to save some coin when he put up a TV tower years ago. The hole was a hand-dug, triangular hole 3' on the sides and 4 feet deep. He figured a few hrs of mixing and pouring was all it would take. It took 8 hrs of mixing concrete (in a job-site type mixer) and he said he'll NEVER do that again. Your hole is bigger yet... Do the math, 6' diameter 4' deep is over 4 yards of concrete. First of all, how freakin' big is that flag pole? Are you sure you need that much? That's 17,000 lbs of cured concrete; quite an anchor. Second, IIRC, normal concrete trucks don't hold much over 7 or 8 yds I think so you're well into the range of what is considered a normal truck-load...


    I ran the numbers after posting above, and when I saw how many bags it would take, I made up my mind to get a truck pretty quick. The smallest the hole can me is 5' deep, and 4' diameter. I guessed in my first post. That leaves 2.2 yards after subtracting the center tube. That's still 98, 80 pound bags, so I'm probably calling a truck. And that's assuming I dig it to the smallest. I'm pretty good the backhoe, but I'm far from an operator.
     

    luger fan

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    I THINK I remember, well 23 yeas ago, that I was told by the builder, and builders COULDN'T lie could they, that they use a antifreeze in the mix for cold weather. Anything to this?
     

    Fargo

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    I THINK I remember, well 23 yeas ago, that I was told by the builder, and builders COULDN'T lie could they, that they use a antifreeze in the mix for cold weather. Anything to this?
    Yeah, it exists but I don't remember the details on the cold weather mixes. Basically there is an additive to bring the freezing point down. As memory serves, it adds cost and can impact psi values.
     

    Fargo

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    I ran the numbers after posting above, and when I saw how many bags it would take, I made up my mind to get a truck pretty quick. The smallest the hole can me is 5' deep, and 4' diameter. I guessed in my first post. That leaves 2.2 yards after subtracting the center tube. That's still 98, 80 pound bags, so I'm probably calling a truck. And that's assuming I dig it to the smallest. I'm pretty good the backhoe, but I'm far from an operator.
    The idea of self mixing 2.2 yards gives me the Heebie jeebies. Unless this is a helluva flagpole, it sounds like you are going to pay for a lot more concrete than you need. Have you looked unto renting/borrowing an auger?
     

    bocefus78

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    Exactly like Fargo said, you are wasting crete at $130 per yard.
    Buy an auger from tsc. Use it one time, then sell it. Mix a few bags by hand and be done.

    Should save you quite a bit of money. Iirc, the minimum charge around here for Joe blow individuals is like 3 yards for a truck....even if you only need two yards.

    If ur around nobletucky anytime soon, I have one with an 8" bit you can use for free. No rush on returning it either.


    Edit. Nvm. I see you need a 4 foot hole per spec. Not just bc of the backhoe. This must be one hell of a flagpole.
     

    PGRChaplain

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    Go to your Home Center, Menards, Lowes, Home Depot Etc. and get a Sono-Tube (Cardboard Tube), 2' Dimater for Concrete. It will save you a lot of $$$ on Concrete. Dig the hole, Plumb the Tube and Backfill it. Ii your 3' below grade that's Plenty to avoid Frost Heave. Are you going to install Bolts while its wet, or Drill after it cures? If a 2' Tube isn't large enough your Redi-Mix supplier will have larger ones.
     
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