Cichlid Experts?

[femurphy77]

After Several years hiatus we have our 180 back up and running. We've plumbed in a 35 gallon sump, have several rock hiding places, a nice piece of driftwood and several fake plants and sand substrate. We vacuum regularly and do about a 40 gallon water change weekly. We used a bio cycle prior to populating it and our ph is around 8.2. We've started slowly with 7 malawi's bought from the same tank in the same store to ensure compatibility. Our water chemistry is dead nuts on.

You knew a problem was coming right? About 3 weeks ago we started losing one fish at a time and are down to our last two. The only symptoms I've seen are lethargy, hanging around the bottom, ultimately swimming/floating upside down on the bottom then death. One was trailing white poo a couple of weeks ago but he's been doing strong until today when he bellied up. Another one went with it so I did an impromptu post mortem on him and since my high school biology class internal fish organ identifying fu went away many moons ago the only thing I can say is that there was a lot of white puss looking stuff in the anal cavity and further into the organ cavity was some type of black substance. This particular one seemed somewhat bloated where the other seemed slightly emaciated in my non fish doc opinion.

Any cichlid experts have any insight?

Yeah I know, pretty specific right?

 

[hoosierdoc]

Malawi bloat?

Malawi Bloat

 

[jsharmon7]

Malawi bloat?

Malawi Bloat

A doctor of people, and fishes!

 

[hoosierdoc]

A doctor of people, and fishes!

Who can google “cichlid swimming at bottom”

 

[Itchytriggerfinger]

I tried cichlids for about a year. They're very finicky when they're young and I couldn't get the tank right.


Gave up and bought 2 Oscars that lived for almost 10 years.

 

[drumsscott]

After Several years hiatus we have our 180 back up and running. We've plumbed in a 35 gallon sump, have several rock hiding places, a nice piece of driftwood and several fake plants and sand substrate. We vacuum regularly and do about a 40 gallon water change weekly. We used a bio cycle prior to populating it and our ph is around 8.2. We've started slowly with 7 malawi's bought from the same tank in the same store to ensure compatibility. Our water chemistry is dead nuts on.

You knew a problem was coming right? About 3 weeks ago we started losing one fish at a time and are down to our last two. The only symptoms I've seen are lethargy, hanging around the bottom, ultimately swimming/floating upside down on the bottom then death. One was trailing white poo a couple of weeks ago but he's been doing strong until today when he bellied up. Another one went with it so I did an impromptu post mortem on him and since my high school biology class internal fish organ identifying fu went away many moons ago the only thing I can say is that there was a lot of white puss looking stuff in the anal cavity and further into the organ cavity was some type of black substance. This particular one seemed somewhat bloated where the other seemed slightly emaciated in my non fish doc opinion.

Any cichlid experts have any insight?

Yeah I know, pretty specific right?

How long did you cycle your tank before adding the fish? Are you using RO water? Maybe only do a 20 gallon change once a week. You might think about adding a canister filter where you can add media such as peat moss to help keep the PH that cichlids like. When ever I purchase Cichlids or salt water fish I always quarantine for at least 4 weeks. Sounds like you might have had a parasite. Usual protocol is 1st 15 days use PraziPro then Ich-X the last 15 days. I know it's a pain in the butt, but you will have a better chance for success if you quarantine. My salt water reef tank has fish that are over 20 years old and coral that are pushing 30 years old that's pictured.
Glad to see another fish head on INGO.

 

[pute62]

I’ve had 3 cichlids that I bought as babies in a 20 gallon for the last year and have changed the water once. Bio filter, heat and food is all they’ve ever needed and they don’t care for plants. Other than digging them up. In all the years I’ve done salt/ fresh aquariums I’ve never done monthly water changes and never had a problem.

 

[seedubs1]

Sounds like bloat if you don't see anything external on the fish. That's either parasitic or bacterial, and normally onset by stress due to crappy water parameters, tank location, etc... I'm betting your Nitrate numbers are high.....assuming you did a proper fishless cycle with ammonia prior to putting the fish in that is. If not, your parameters are probably junk. What are your Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate numbers? And you better not be using those junk dipsticks to check your water parameters.

Dude.....why are you only doing a 40 gallon water change per week? That's only going to be about a 20% water change factoring in your sump. Unacceptable.

When I had my 180, I did 75% or more twice a week. Get rid of those ****ing Nitrates man. Anyone saying not to do big water changes doesn't know what they're talking about. Modern fish keeping has come a LONG way since back in the 90's when people were scared of changing water. Get your water parameters for the fresh water you're putting in right, and you're going to have healthier fish by doing BIG water changes and getting rid of those Nitrates.

Nandopsis Haitiensis.....the HARDEST cichlid to keep alive. These guys bloat and die for seemingly no reason. 75% water changes twice a week, and he was a beast.

 

[drumsscott]

Sounds like bloat if you don't see anything external on the fish. That's either parasitic or bacterial, and normally onset by stress due to crappy water parameters, tank location, etc... I'm betting your Nitrate numbers are high.....assuming you did a proper fishless cycle with ammonia prior to putting the fish in that is. If not, your parameters are probably junk. What are your Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate numbers? And you better not be using those junk dipsticks to check your water parameters.

Dude.....why are you only doing a 40 gallon water change per week? That's only going to be about a 20% water change factoring in your sump. Unacceptable.

When I had my 180, I did 75% or more twice a week. Get rid of those ****ing Nitrates man. Anyone saying not to do big water changes doesn't know what they're talking about. Modern fish keeping has come a LONG way since back in the 90's when people were scared of changing water. Get your water parameters for the fresh water you're putting in right, and you're going to have healthier fish by doing BIG water changes and getting rid of those Nitrates.

Nandopsis Haitiensis.....the HARDEST cichlid to keep alive. These guys bloat and die for seemingly no reason. 75% water changes twice a week, and he was a beast.

We all have different perspectives and suggestions. I wouldn't go saying others don't know what their talking about. The hobby has gone thru several improvements over the years. The more education you have the better. Just because your a master and have over 4,151 posts doesn't mean dick, sounds like your just thinking your better than anybody else.

 

[seedubs1]

Sorry man, but in the fresh water cichlid game, you are wrong if you aren't recommending large frequent water changes. Go hang out in a fish keeping forum (MFK is a good one). You will be berated if you are recommending small water changes. It's chemistry, biology, and just flat out science.

It's not a matter of opinion or perspective in this case. And I don't care about post count.....especially regarding the discussion of fish in a gun forum. But I damn well know my stuff regarding keeping cichlids.

Looks like you keep reefs and salt water. That is a different game than cichlids and fresh water with no plants. You're dealing with an echosystem where waste from one animal is consumed by another while I'm dealing only with accumulation of waste (NO3, and cichlids produce a LOT of waste) and the need to get rid of it with large frequent water changes. Apples and oranges. Your water treatment and changes are WAY different, and I'm pretty sure you can walk circles around me discussing keeping salt tanks.

We all have different perspectives and suggestions. I wouldn't go saying others don't know what their talking about. The hobby has gone thru several improvements over the years. The more education you have the better. Just because your a master and have over 4,151 posts doesn't mean dick, sounds like your just thinking your better than anybody else.

 

[femurphy77]

I'll see if I can respond to the comments so far;

Yes we have considered bloat and although we haven't medicated for it "thought" all was well until yesterday. We are on a well with a naturally high PH, even with the softener we still get numbers in the low 8 range. The tank ran sans fish for about 6 weeks before we put fish in it. During that time we used the commercially available additives to initiate the biocycle and although we have never seen the "spike" the numbers are right on the money. I can't quote them right now but if the ideal number was zero so was ours. We are not using the strips but do use the test tube kit, you know add 10 drops of this, shake, add 10 drops of that, wait.

We didn't want to set up a quarantine tank but given this initial experience we are now trying to find a location for one. Stress "shouldn't" be an issue for the fish, their color has been brilliant since day one, the location of the tank isn't in a high traffic or bright area of the house. We have a timer for lights with clear leds on during the day and at night it changes to a dark blue. Our water changes have been light due to the fact that we only have (had) 7 fish in the tank with the biggest one being just shy of 3". I'm not too concerned about too many water changes since I don't have to lug jugs of water around given the well and the lack of chlorine etc.

I'm not ready to quit on it but dayum I gotta find some help on this because if I'm going to spend $30+ on a dead fish it best come with a nice sauce, wine, etc!

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

I just have to admire someone that attempts to diagnose a problem by disassembling the machine.

 

[snapping turtle]

Yes change that water.

Are we talking African or South American cichlids?????? A little different not huge but still. Africans are harder to keep up. South American like the ram cichlids are a bit easier.

We had many 55’s to 75’s (about 15 total) and 20-30 gallon change out once to twice a week was required to keep African’s alive and breeding well. The South American ones always seemed to kill each other off after destroying all the other items in the tank. African’s are hard to breed. South Americans seem to be more territorial.

The tanks were in a garage on built in shelving units which made it easy just roll in the pump. If you think those are hard fresh water fish try discus fish.

we raised mainly convicts and angels. We never had much luck with breeding much else. Gramma’s old freezer was the convict breeding tank and since it was divided it work so very well. Ugly of 1950’s freezer with the 8 inch insulation on the sides.

Truely throw in a bunch of convicts or tetras. They are hardy fish and you can get the spikes and valley’s of a new big tank down fairly well with them. A huge tank with say 100 cardinal tertra’s swimming in a school is pretty cool. cardinal tertra’s are South American so the PH requirements are similar.

Go go to the reef on keystone with water sample and pictures of your setup. I normally do not recommend shops but the reef has been around as long as I can remember and they used to buy my convicts back in the day. They have been in the same place forever so they only stay in business that long by being good.

 

[snapping turtle]

And I am done with tanks. I don’t even have a gold fish anymore.

 

[femurphy77]

I just have to admire someone that attempts to diagnose a problem by disassembling the machine.

That's ALWAYS the first step! Man card rule 217. No I had read on a fish forum about the post mortem. I did consider calling Hoosier Doc for that one though.

We have a VERY expensive lawnmower that may need a new engine, I told the GF I'd rather deal with that because I can tear it down and repair it.

They are Malawi's and planning on heading to the reef this weekend.

 

[seedubs1]

I’m not convinced of cycling tanks with the commercial chemicals. A lot of them are made to jump start a bb colony. However, unless you FEED the bb, it’ll die off. For a proper fishless cycle, dose daily with ammonia (pure ammonia). And track ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels daily. Once ammonia and nitrite levels are 0, you are cycled and ready for fish.

I don’t think your tank is cycled properly. Read up on ammonia based fish less cycling. Lots of good reading out there. Do it right, and you won’t have to deal with dying fish. Not to mention.....cycling with fish is inhumane and cruel. The ammonia burns their gills. Imagine having to inhale ammonia fumes for a month with no reprieve.

Oh, and read up on bloat as well. Last I remember, the main correlation to fixing the issues was to properly cycle a tank and do big frequent water changes to keep nitrates down. That was the main lever. There was one med (metro and salt maybe?) that had some amount of success, but not as much as diligent tank maintenance.

 

[aclark]

I agree with seedubs, I don't think the tank was actually cycled. If you are getting all 0's I would be skeptical. You should be seeing some nitrate all the time, probably even after a water change, what you shouldn't often see, except for during the cycle is ammonia and nitrites. You can do a fish in cycle if you still have a few left, but its going to take constant water changes, and a lot of time and attention.

 

[seedubs1]

Yeah.....my theory is that he essentially dumped in BB with the chemicals, and that was it. The BB in those chemicals is weak to begin with. And just continuing to add those chems to "cycle" the tank was just adding more and more weak BB. It didn't add much for them to feed on (ammonia). And it likely all died due to not being fed. Then, once he thought the tank was cycled, he added fish to an uncycled tank. And since the fish were African Cichlids, they got stressed due to poor water chemistry, got bloat, and are now dieing off.

A proper fishless cycle with pure ammonia is the most effective way to cycle the tank. And the cheapest. The chemical companies just want in on the game.....so they market their chemicals for "cycling" a tank. Greedy chemical companies.....

I agree with seedubs, I don't think the tank was actually cycled. If you are getting all 0's I would be skeptical. You should be seeing some nitrate all the time, probably even after a water change, what you shouldn't often see, except for during the cycle is ammonia and nitrites. You can do a fish in cycle if you still have a few left, but its going to take constant water changes, and a lot of time and attention.

 

[femurphy77]

I’m not convinced of cycling tanks with the commercial chemicals. A lot of them are made to jump start a bb colony. However, unless you FEED the bb, it’ll die off. For a proper fishless cycle, dose daily with ammonia (pure ammonia). And track ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels daily. Once ammonia and nitrite levels are 0, you are cycled and ready for fish.

I don’t think your tank is cycled properly. Read up on ammonia based fish less cycling. Lots of good reading out there. Do it right, and you won’t have to deal with dying fish. Not to mention.....cycling with fish is inhumane and cruel. The ammonia burns their gills. Imagine having to inhale ammonia fumes for a month with no reprieve.

Oh, and read up on bloat as well. Last I remember, the main correlation to fixing the issues was to properly cycle a tank and do big frequent water changes to keep nitrates down. That was the main lever. There was one med (metro and salt maybe?) that had some amount of success, but not as much as diligent tank maintenance.

I agree with seedubs, I don't think the tank was actually cycled. If you are getting all 0's I would be skeptical. You should be seeing some nitrate all the time, probably even after a water change, what you shouldn't often see, except for during the cycle is ammonia and nitrites. You can do a fish in cycle if you still have a few left, but its going to take constant water changes, and a lot of time and attention.

Sounds like the direction I may need to move. Definitely won't do it with fish in the water. I was skeptical of the bottled cycling product but thought I'd give it a try, as you noted the cycle probably never really took off. Now I have to figure out what to do with the survivors if they don't succumb next.

 

[aclark]

make sure you get "clear" ammonia. I used the one from Ace with no problems. I used about a cap full per dose in my 75 gallon, but I'm sure you could find an exact ppm formula/table if you looked around - shoot for 6-10 ppm of ammonia to start. You could try this with some bottled bacteria to try and jump start the colony, but ammonia is a proven method, you could also get some used media from someone with an established tank to jump start. But no matter how you do it, you need to run a full cycle. You should be able to covert 8-10 ppm of ammonia to nitrate in 24 hours to get a 0 ammonia / 0 nitrite reading, then do water changes to lower the nitrates.


Other thing I would recommend is not messing with the pH, let your fish acclimate to it, and they'll be fine. I've never seen a person that adjusts their pH that ends up with a stable tank.