PSA and rant if you have a modern diesel with an exhaust aftertreatment system

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  • jkaetz

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    Bypass it now before it arbitrarily turns your vehicle into a giant brick.

    The wife's 2011 diesel has had a CEL for the long term DEF adaptations being out of range and more recently that the DEF tank was low. I figured the CEL was related to the low level so I filled it up expecting both messages to go away after the adaptations adjusted. Instead on Monday it decided to go into self destruct mode saying that it could only be started 16 more times. Apparently other manufacturers will shut down in the middle of the road if the system faults. In addition it appears dealers are the only ones that can reset the system, I reached out to Autobahn (Who thinks they could do it but are booked three weeks out), Car Tech, and Tom's Auto Clinic. The latter two said it was likely going to require a trip to World Wide Motors. :spend:

    I'd love to curbstomp the numbskull that thought it was a good idea to electronically disable vehicles due to an emissions fault that can't be reset by consumers or shops without dealer level diagnostics. And while I'm happy that it is a start limit and not a mileage or time limit, who though 16 was a good number? I would guess 4 - 6 starts/day is average. Twice already today I've left it running to make a stop to prevent using up a start.

    :soapbox:
     

    Leadeye

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    Sounds like a classic public/private partnership that makes money for a few at the expense of many. Just pay for a new or reinterpreted law, and you can get rich while signaling your virtue to big media for saving the planet.

    Always follow the money
     

    jkaetz

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    Ah, if only I understood what the OP is posting about...
    It's far less expensive not knowing. :)

    If you care, someone determined that oxides of nitrogen (NOx) in exhaust is bad. To reduce this in modern diesel vehicles, they inject a urea solution into the exhaust. If that system faults, they electronically disable the engine even though the engine will still run happily without it.
     

    eldirector

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    I know it has no glowplugs. Is the engine management completely mechanical?
    The older 6B/BT/BTA engines (and the 4B/BT variants) are completely mechanical. Once started, no electricity required. The alternator/generator charged the starting batteries and ran accessories. Actually, every single diesel was like that until the 1990's or so. Cummins, GM, Detroit, Mercedes, etc....

    Automotive diesels started picking up electronics a decade or so after gas engines. The last hold-out was Cummins.
     

    rem788

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    Is the engine management completely mechanical?
    Just the opposite, all electronic. Hence the need for a scanner capable of resetting the adaptation limits or whatever is necessary. I am not that informed on diesels, not my forte. jkaetz, I appreciate your frustration. I bought a 2015 Kubota tractor. 37 HP model L3901, basically a utility tractor. Certainly not something I am going out and farm a thousand acres with. It has the diesel particulate filter on it. Seriously, a particulate filter on a 4 cylinder diesel that sips fuel? Can't possibly produce that much particulate, can it? So it has to run the process to burn the particulate that collects in the filter. This process has to be run more often if you don't run the engine over 2500 rpm's consistently. So here I am doing simple chores with a utility tractor with the engine screaming to keep the exhaust hot to burn off the particulate in the exhaust filter. STILL have to run the process about every 20 hours or so because if I don't stop and run the procedure eventually the engine will go into reduced power mode and must be hauled to the dealer to have the computer reset. Ridiculous. But it gets better. Be prepared for significant increases in repair costs. Just read an article about increased security precautions for late model vehicles, the last year or so, requiring dealers and independent repair shops to obtain special equipment, subscriptions and internet connection every time they connect to these vehicles.Dealer and aftermarket scanners must be upgraded. Dealers and independent shops will have to subscribe and get the security clearances or be locked out. Even some of the best aftermarket scanners will not connect to the vehicle unless the operator completed all the necessary steps, if the scanner even has that capability. This will require significant ongoing investment at all levels of repair. As with any business trying to make a profit, the costs will be passed on to the consumer. All this to prevent someone from "hacking" your vehicles operating system.
     

    edporch

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    Bypass it now before it arbitrarily turns your vehicle into a giant brick.

    The wife's 2011 diesel has had a CEL for the long term DEF adaptations being out of range and more recently that the DEF tank was low.
    -snip-

    What brand of vehicle is this?
     

    Nazgul

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    Near the big river.
    Our service trucks were GM diesels that had this problem often. Difficult and illegal to disable the system. Most of the time we had to replace the def system- pump, injector, control valve....

    Never did come up with a way of avoiding it. It would shut down the speed to 20 mph if we did not deal with it soon enough. Very handy when a road tech was 100 + miles from the shop.

    Don
     

    thunderchicken

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    Bypass it now before it arbitrarily turns your vehicle into a giant brick.

    The wife's 2011 diesel has had a CEL for the long term DEF adaptations being out of range and more recently that the DEF tank was low. I figured the CEL was related to the low level so I filled it up expecting both messages to go away after the adaptations adjusted. Instead on Monday it decided to go into self destruct mode saying that it could only be started 16 more times. Apparently other manufacturers will shut down in the middle of the road if the system faults. In addition it appears dealers are the only ones that can reset the system, I reached out to Autobahn (Who thinks they could do it but are booked three weeks out), Car Tech, and Tom's Auto Clinic. The latter two said it was likely going to require a trip to World Wide Motors. :spend:

    I'd love to curbstomp the numbskull that thought it was a good idea to electronically disable vehicles due to an emissions fault that can't be reset by consumers or shops without dealer level diagnostics. And while I'm happy that it is a start limit and not a mileage or time limit, who though 16 was a good number? I would guess 4 - 6 starts/day is average. Twice already today I've left it running to make a stop to prevent using up a start.

    :soapbox:

    Thank Government mandates. This isn't a manufacturer scheme to make you spend money. Although each brand has some variation on the process, they all do it. Keeping the DEF tank filled is vital to system operation. Many have a digital display that will say "Drive to clean exhaust" and if not done within a set number of starts can cause the vehicle to go into limp mode.
    Now, I am not a diesel tech but I have seen trucks come in the shop for such issues
     

    maxwelhse

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    There are loads of Diesel shops that make their bread and butter on deleting that garbage and that's the first thing I'd suggest too.

    I worked at Navistar as the Fort Wayne facility closed down and was also there while our geniuses in the engine group lost the contract with Ford AND nearly put the company out of business before switching to SCR.

    It's all cancer. Get it off your light truck and let the OTR guys that are actually causing the NOx problems deal with the solution. I feel bad for the owner/operators that have to put up with it, but the fleets can afford it.
     

    cmann250

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    Ah the diesel owner’s quandary.

    Delete and tune -> void the warranty
    Leave it stock -> 95% of your warranty work is on the emission system

    Oh yea, and the 12v Cummins is the best engine ever... if you want to wear earplugs in the cab :)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    AtTheMurph

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    It is a Mercedes. He mentioned World Wide Motors.

    BTW, I am pretty sure the DEF system shuts itself off if the temps are below a certain number. I wonder how those government totalitarians reconcile this with a supposedly cleaner environment? Don't polar bears and snow geese need clean air too?
     

    jkaetz

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    What brand of vehicle is this?
    Benz. Overall I'd say it's been good to us, almost 8 years and 105k, used for towing, traveling, and the daily grind. We went diesel for the power and milage at the time, the emissions stuff was too new to really get a feel for how troublesome it could be. Since it's paid off and the wife still likes it we can put a lot into maintenance and still be better off than replacing it. Our plan is to drive it until the wheels fall off but were thrown off by the sudden self destruct mode activation. We were under the impression that it would only happen if the DEF tank was empty and that we would get more than a 16 start warning. According to my eyeballs, scanner, and the IP the tank is full.

    Thank Government mandates. This isn't a manufacturer scheme to make you spend money. Although each brand has some variation on the process, they all do it. Keeping the DEF tank filled is vital to system operation. Many have a digital display that will say "Drive to clean exhaust" and if not done within a set number of starts can cause the vehicle to go into limp mode.
    Now, I am not a diesel tech but I have seen trucks come in the shop for such issues
    In the past I've just filled it when it said it was low and it's never complained. Apparently this time was different.

    Ah the diesel owner’s quandary.

    Delete and tune -> void the warranty
    Leave it stock -> 95% of your warranty work is on the emission system

    Oh yea, and the 12v Cummins is the best engine ever... if you want to wear earplugs in the cab :)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    what's a warranty? We haven't had a vehicle under warranty since sometime in 2014. :)
     

    jkaetz

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    Update...

    Euro Motorworks on 90th street gave it a try. They were able to see that all sensors and readings were in the proper range but couldn't get the countdown to reset. They gave it back to us with 6 more starts.

    Today I broke down and took it to World Wide Motors. On the way there I got a beep and the countdown went from 4 starts to 16!? I handed it off without shutting it down and they poked at it for an hour determining that everything was working and they cleared the counter. Now it's a matter of driving to see if it comes back. 30 miles later and no codes of any kind. :dunno: Still tempting to order the bypass and have it on hand for the next time the system goes on the fritz. I don't mind saving the environment, but don't turn my car into a brick because it isn't working. Imagine the backlash if every car had a self destruct mode when an oxygen sensor or some other minor component failed...
     

    bobzilla

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    No way in hell you could get me to drive a German car. Especially diesel German cars made in The last 10 years. I don’t have enough income to maintain one.
     
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