Best residential HVAC setup

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  • Jeepfanatic

    Marksman
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    0   0   0
    Jun 25, 2018
    260
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    Plainfield
    This should be similar to a 1911 vs Glock and .45 vs .40 vs 9mm thread...

    We are considering building a new house with some acreage in a few more years once we are done paying for diapers and preschool. What is the best residential HVAC setup with ROI as a consideration?
     

    gregkl

    Outlier
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    33   0   0
    Apr 8, 2012
    11,868
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    Bloomington
    I'm sure things have changed since my younger years when I did heat loss calculations for residential and commercial rooms. But I still think I would prefer a gas fired hot water boiler with cast iron baseboard. Plus by sizing how many feet of baseboard you put in each room, you can "zone" each room so that temps are more consistent room to room. Of course you can also zone hot water systems too.

    The concept of radiant heat from a baseboard is that the items in the room are heated, not necessarily the air like you get with scorched air systems. Studies have shown that people are more comfortable in a room with cooler air temps but warmer furniture, flooring, etc.

    But I'm not sure hot water baseboard is used anymore. Most likely due to the high installation cost.
     

    ChristianPatriot

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    28   0   0
    Feb 11, 2013
    12,801
    113
    Clifford, IN
    Heat pump with natural gas backup is the best “normal” system.

    Radiant floor heat is awesome, but expensive/complex.

    Geothermal loops are awesome but expensive/complex.


    The problem when you get into the 90+% furnaces and high seer uber-efficient a/c systems is the price of the parts when (not if) they fail. Yeah you’re saving some money in your energy bill but then a blower motor goes out and it’s $600+ instead of $100. Or an a/c compressor goes out and it’s $1000+ instead of $500-ish. Not to mention all of the extra control boards and circuit boards to run the high efficient systems.

    I’d go high dollar on the housing insulation because it doesn’t degrade and doesn’t need service. Get the house sealed up tight and you’d be surprised how little it takes to heat/cool a home.
     
    Last edited:

    BigBoxaJunk

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Feb 9, 2013
    7,314
    113
    East-ish
    I don't mean to jack the thread, but I'm looking to replace my HVAC system also, or at least my furnace, which broke down three days ago. I'm looking to replace the 21 year-old furnace, and possibly the AC also. I would rather replace the furnace now, and the AC when the weather is more conducive, but I don't know how practical that is or isn't. I'm heating the house just fine with the wood stove, but it's surprisingly bothersome not to have that furnace to back us up, even though it sometimes goes weeks at a time without being used.

    I was going to PM Churchmouse, but I hate to bother a man when he might be enjoying kicking back on a snow day. :lmfao:

    I do have questions about my situation:

    1. The old furnace is a 100,000 btu 80+ unit, and I think the AC is 3 ton or so. My instinct is to stay with an 80+ unit, since my house is small (1650 sq.ft.), very well insulated, and since we burn wood routinely. And, I also like the idea of the 80+ unit being more simple and basic, being more durable in the long run, and easier to fix if/when it has a problem. I would just like to know if there is a down-side to an 80+ unit that I'm not thinking of?

    2. Also, I know my AC, being 21 years old, is on borrowed time, and if that needs to be replaced with the furnace, I can do that. I just was thinking that if I could get a new furnace now, it would be quicker and easier to change that out, and do the AC in the spring. I know that there are problems with using a new furnace with old AC units and vice versa, but it seems like it would be a chore to replace the AC in this weather, and I'd like to get a new furnace sooner than later. I plan to call Alaska Heating and Cooling (in Albany) tomorrow and get a guy to come take a look and discuss my options.

    Any advice would be appreciated.
     

    PaulF

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Apr 4, 2009
    3,045
    83
    Indianapolis
    We just put a new furnace and air conditioner in on Friday.

    Yikes.

    We ended up going with a Lennox Signature furnace and a Lennox Elite air conditioner. It was...er, costly.

    I'm also a little bummed out. The furnace they removed was a Bryant installed in 1979, and it still worked...well, usually. The A/C was a GE made in Dayton Ohio and installed in 1982...still worked, although it ran all the time...still, not bad for forty years in-service. I don't figure I'll get much more than 10 years out of the new stuff. I wanted to have a wood-burning stove installed (emergency heat only) along with the new furnace, but my insurance didn't like that idea, so it didn't happen.

    It's disappointing because it doesn't seem like my dollars buy as much as they did even a few years ago, and the stuff they do buy doesn't last nearly as long. It's hard to buy or build with an eye toward longevity anymore.

    Anyway...the Lennox stuff has a decent warranty, it's assembled in the US (if you get the upper-mid grade or better), and has locally-based distributors, so they check enough of my "buy local" boxes. I had a trusted local company do the install, and I am impressed with the quality of the machinery and the work. Runs quiet, and not very often from what I can tell. Thermostat is my phone...also a ipad-like thing on the wall, but there's no need to taunt that...I leave it alone and it does its thing.

    We did a bunch of research before we bought. I didn't find reviews very helpful, as pretty much every brand has some awful reviews. I ended up making my decision based on the anecdotal evidence I collected from family and friends...and rolled the dice.

    Good luck. Buying a furnace is like buying a car. There's just too much hype and BS. Hopefully Churchmouse chimes in on this thread, he is a wealth of knowledge on HVAC stuff.
     

    ChristianPatriot

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    28   0   0
    Feb 11, 2013
    12,801
    113
    Clifford, IN
    I don't mean to jack the thread, but I'm looking to replace my HVAC system also, or at least my furnace, which broke down three days ago. I'm looking to replace the 21 year-old furnace, and possibly the AC also. I would rather replace the furnace now, and the AC when the weather is more conducive, but I don't know how practical that is or isn't. I'm heating the house just fine with the wood stove, but it's surprisingly bothersome not to have that furnace to back us up, even though it sometimes goes weeks at a time without being used.

    I was going to PM Churchmouse, but I hate to bother a man when he might be enjoying kicking back on a snow day. :lmfao:

    I do have questions about my situation:

    1. The old furnace is a 100,000 btu 80+ unit, and I think the AC is 3 ton or so. My instinct is to stay with an 80+ unit, since my house is small (1650 sq.ft.), very well insulated, and since we burn wood routinely. And, I also like the idea of the 80+ unit being more simple and basic, being more durable in the long run, and easier to fix if/when it has a problem. I would just like to know if there is a down-side to an 80+ unit that I'm not thinking of?

    2. Also, I know my AC, being 21 years old, is on borrowed time, and if that needs to be replaced with the furnace, I can do that. I just was thinking that if I could get a new furnace now, it would be quicker and easier to change that out, and do the AC in the spring. I know that there are problems with using a new furnace with old AC units and vice versa, but it seems like it would be a chore to replace the AC in this weather, and I'd like to get a new furnace sooner than later. I plan to call Alaska Heating and Cooling (in Albany) tomorrow and get a guy to come take a look and discuss my options.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    1. Only downside is that they are less efficient. Also less complicated (fewer parts to maintain or that could go bad) and more affordable up-front cost.

    2. If you know you’re going to replace the A/C, And I think it would be wise to do so, as long as the evaporator/A-coil is set in place at the same time that the furnace is replaced, the outside unit and lineset can be done at a later date.
     

    femurphy77

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Mar 5, 2009
    20,268
    113
    S.E. of disorder
    Heat pump with natural gas backup is the best “normal” system.

    Radiant floor heat is awesome, but expensive/complex.

    Geothermal loops are awesome but expensive/complex.


    The problem when you get into the 90+% furnaces and high seer uber-efficient a/c systems is the price of the parts when (not if) they fail. Yeah you’re saving some money in your energy bill but then a blower motor goes out and it’s $600+ instead of $100. Or an a/c compressor goes out and it’s $1000+ instead of $500-ish. Not to mention all of the extra control boards and circuit boards to run the high efficient systems.

    I’d go high dollar on the housing insulation because it doesn’t degrade and doesn’t need service. Get the house sealed up tight and you’d be surprised how little it takes to heat/cool a home.

    Not an HVAC contractor but agree with this whole heartedly from an end user that has always spent dollars up front whenever I bought a house to add extra insulation wherever I could. I've never built one but did do a 500 sq ft room addition a couple of years ago and went above and beyond for insulation.

    I highlighted in red because that's only true if the insulation is installed properly in the first place. Our house is about 20 years old and is a typical house built by a competent builder and I say that as we haven't found any real flaws with it in the 10 years we've been here but when we cut out 20' of the wall on the backside for our room addition we found that in every cell in the exterior wall (between studs) the insulation had sagged so much that there was a 2 to 6" air gap at the top of every cell. I have to assume that this is the norm for the whole house so we'll be bringing in a contractor to drill and fill next spring I hope.
     

    Rookie

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    14   0   0
    Sep 22, 2008
    18,155
    113
    Kokomo
    I'm sure things have changed since my younger years when I did heat loss calculations for residential and commercial rooms. But I still think I would prefer a gas fired hot water boiler with cast iron baseboard. Plus by sizing how many feet of baseboard you put in each room, you can "zone" each room so that temps are more consistent room to room. Of course you can also zone hot water systems too.

    The concept of radiant heat from a baseboard is that the items in the room are heated, not necessarily the air like you get with scorched air systems. Studies have shown that people are more comfortable in a room with cooler air temps but warmer furniture, flooring, etc.

    But I'm not sure hot water baseboard is used anymore. Most likely due to the high installation cost.

    Hot water baseboards are still around. I helped my dad install a system a few months ago.
     

    ChristianPatriot

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    28   0   0
    Feb 11, 2013
    12,801
    113
    Clifford, IN
    We just put a new furnace and air conditioner in on Friday.

    Yikes.

    We ended up going with a Lennox Signature furnace and a Lennox Elite air conditioner. It was...er, costly.

    I'm also a little bummed out. The furnace they removed was a Bryant installed in 1979, and it still worked...well, usually. The A/C was a GE made in Dayton Ohio and installed in 1982...still worked, although it ran all the time...still, not bad for forty years in-service. I don't figure I'll get much more than 10 years out of the new stuff. I wanted to have a wood-burning stove installed (emergency heat only) along with the new furnace, but my insurance didn't like that idea, so it didn't happen.

    It's disappointing because it doesn't seem like my dollars buy as much as they did even a few years ago, and the stuff they do buy doesn't last nearly as long. It's hard to buy or build with an eye toward longevity anymore.

    Anyway...the Lennox stuff has a decent warranty, it's assembled in the US (if you get the upper-mid grade or better), and has locally-based distributors, so they check enough of my "buy local" boxes. I had a trusted local company do the install, and I am impressed with the quality of the machinery and the work. Runs quiet, and not very often from what I can tell. Thermostat is my phone...also a ipad-like thing on the wall, but there's no need to taunt that...I leave it alone and it does its thing.

    We did a bunch of research before we bought. I didn't find reviews very helpful, as pretty much every brand has some awful reviews. I ended up making my decision based on the anecdotal evidence I collected from family and friends...and rolled the dice.

    Good luck. Buying a furnace is like buying a car. There's just too much hype and BS. Hopefully Churchmouse chimes in on this thread, he is a wealth of knowledge on HVAC stuff.

    Companies nowadays don’t even hide the fact that their equipment will only last 12-15 years at best. It is unfortunate.
     

    Jeepfanatic

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 25, 2018
    260
    18
    Plainfield
    I don't mean to jack the thread, but I'm looking to replace my HVAC system also, or at least my furnace, which broke down three days ago. I'm looking to replace the 21 year-old furnace, and possibly the AC also. I would rather replace the furnace now, and the AC when the weather is more conducive, but I don't know how practical that is or isn't. I'm heating the house just fine with the wood stove, but it's surprisingly bothersome not to have that furnace to back us up, even though it sometimes goes weeks at a time without being used.

    I was going to PM Churchmouse, but I hate to bother a man when he might be enjoying kicking back on a snow day. :lmfao:

    I do have questions about my situation:

    1. The old furnace is a 100,000 btu 80+ unit, and I think the AC is 3 ton or so. My instinct is to stay with an 80+ unit, since my house is small (1650 sq.ft.), very well insulated, and since we burn wood routinely. And, I also like the idea of the 80+ unit being more simple and basic, being more durable in the long run, and easier to fix if/when it has a problem. I would just like to know if there is a down-side to an 80+ unit that I'm not thinking of?

    2. Also, I know my AC, being 21 years old, is on borrowed time, and if that needs to be replaced with the furnace, I can do that. I just was thinking that if I could get a new furnace now, it would be quicker and easier to change that out, and do the AC in the spring. I know that there are problems with using a new furnace with old AC units and vice versa, but it seems like it would be a chore to replace the AC in this weather, and I'd like to get a new furnace sooner than later. I plan to call Alaska Heating and Cooling (in Albany) tomorrow and get a guy to come take a look and discuss my options.

    Any advice would be appreciated.


    When we lived in Maryland we had a high efficiency heat pump setup. Our energy use was ridiculously low except for in the extreme temperatures because the house wasn't well insulated. If we had planned on staying there I would have had insulation blown in.

    The only downside to them IMO is that they cannot scavenge enough heat from ambient temperatures below 30° so they then turn on the emergency backup system(electric grid) to keep the temperature up.

    I thought that they would be ridiculous when combined with a wood stove as a backup heat source.
     

    BigBoxaJunk

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Feb 9, 2013
    7,314
    113
    East-ish
    We ended up going with a Lennox Signature furnace and a Lennox Elite air conditioner.

    My garage/woodshop uses a 1984 Lennox furnace for heating. That furnace has been a champ, and all I've had to do is to give a a once-over cleaning yearly, and a couple of deeper cleanings over the years.

    Coincidentally, that furnace quit a month ago or so, and with the help of Youtube and my volt/ohm meter, I was able to pinpoint my problem (albeit tentatively) as the combination fan control/limit switch. I was able to find a new one for a little over $100 at Supplyhouse.com, and I felt 10-feet tall when I set the control to match the old one, installed it, and it worked great.

    As an old friend used to say, "Being Irish, I have lots of luck, unfortunately, it's not all good luck." And my feelings of accomplishment were short-lived when the house furnace crapped out, with all the classic signs of a failed heat exchanger (again per Youtube).
     

    hoosierdoc

    Freed prisoner
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Apr 27, 2011
    25,987
    149
    Galt's Gulch
    We had a big house with geothermal and desuperheaters for hot water with gas backup hot water heater

    our utility bills were shockingly low. But I think our loop leaked somewhere. And AirTron hooked it up wrong
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
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    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
    152
    Speedway area
    I don't mean to jack the thread, but I'm looking to replace my HVAC system also, or at least my furnace, which broke down three days ago. I'm looking to replace the 21 year-old furnace, and possibly the AC also. I would rather replace the furnace now, and the AC when the weather is more conducive, but I don't know how practical that is or isn't. I'm heating the house just fine with the wood stove, but it's surprisingly bothersome not to have that furnace to back us up, even though it sometimes goes weeks at a time without being used.

    I was going to PM Churchmouse, but I hate to bother a man when he might be enjoying kicking back on a snow day. :lmfao:

    I do have questions about my situation:

    1. The old furnace is a 100,000 btu 80+ unit, and I think the AC is 3 ton or so. My instinct is to stay with an 80+ unit, since my house is small (1650 sq.ft.), very well insulated, and since we burn wood routinely. And, I also like the idea of the 80+ unit being more simple and basic, being more durable in the long run, and easier to fix if/when it has a problem. I would just like to know if there is a down-side to an 80+ unit that I'm not thinking of?

    2. Also, I know my AC, being 21 years old, is on borrowed time, and if that needs to be replaced with the furnace, I can do that. I just was thinking that if I could get a new furnace now, it would be quicker and easier to change that out, and do the AC in the spring. I know that there are problems with using a new furnace with old AC units and vice versa, but it seems like it would be a chore to replace the AC in this weather, and I'd like to get a new furnace sooner than later. I plan to call Alaska Heating and Cooling (in Albany) tomorrow and get a guy to come take a look and discuss my options.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    Do them both at the same time.It is just easier on you and the installer.
    If you can get the flu ran without rebuilding the house I would suggest a basic 90+ furnace and the standard available seer A/C system.
    They are pretty reliable. The parts will not kill you out of Warr. and they do not require a special cert. to work on them.

    Hit me up.
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
    152
    Speedway area
    We just put a new furnace and air conditioner in on Friday.

    Yikes.

    We ended up going with a Lennox Signature furnace and a Lennox Elite air conditioner. It was...er, costly.

    I'm also a little bummed out. The furnace they removed was a Bryant installed in 1979, and it still worked...well, usually. The A/C was a GE made in Dayton Ohio and installed in 1982...still worked, although it ran all the time...still, not bad for forty years in-service. I don't figure I'll get much more than 10 years out of the new stuff. I wanted to have a wood-burning stove installed (emergency heat only) along with the new furnace, but my insurance didn't like that idea, so it didn't happen.

    It's disappointing because it doesn't seem like my dollars buy as much as they did even a few years ago, and the stuff they do buy doesn't last nearly as long. It's hard to buy or build with an eye toward longevity anymore.

    Anyway...the Lennox stuff has a decent warranty, it's assembled in the US (if you get the upper-mid grade or better), and has locally-based distributors, so they check enough of my "buy local" boxes. I had a trusted local company do the install, and I am impressed with the quality of the machinery and the work. Runs quiet, and not very often from what I can tell. Thermostat is my phone...also a ipad-like thing on the wall, but there's no need to taunt that...I leave it alone and it does its thing.

    We did a bunch of research before we bought. I didn't find reviews very helpful, as pretty much every brand has some awful reviews. I ended up making my decision based on the anecdotal evidence I collected from family and friends...and rolled the dice.

    Good luck. Buying a furnace is like buying a car. There's just too much hype and BS. Hopefully Churchmouse chimes in on this thread, he is a wealth of knowledge on HVAC stuff.

    Well......no knock but why Lennox...??
     

    alabasterjar

    Sharpshooter
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    3   0   0
    Apr 13, 2013
    613
    28
    Steuben County
    +3 on building envelope first. We are 2 years into our Insulated Concrete Form (ICF) home. 2 story on a basement with an attached garage. 2400 sq ft living space, over 1200 sqft [mostly] unfinished, unheated basement. We choose zoned radiant floor heat (including the garage) with a forced air air conditioning. We were on the fence between this & using a mini-split for ac, but choose forced for air circulation/filtration.

    All radiant floor heat components are drinking water certified, so we are able to use an "open loop" setup where the floor heat & domestic hot water are sourced from the same high efficiency water heater (Westinghouse 80 gallon, 97% efficiency 25 kbtu - 76 kbtu). I have plans to install a wood burning stove in the garage with a hot water loop to preheat water to the hot water heater. We originally intended to put the wood burner in the basement, but after 2 years of living here, I think that even the smallest wood stove down there would run us out of the house. The basement stays a consistent 65 degrees even without heat.

    ICF homes are by design tight 12" thick wall sandwich (3" polystyrene form, 6" steel reinforced concrete, 3" polystyrene) that are tight due to the monolithic concrete pour. When factoring in little air movement through the walls, I have heard wall r-value ratings as high as R-65. Radiant floor heat provides consistent heat where you want it - at your feet. The second floor of our home is where all of the bedrooms are & we keep it set @ 65. A little cool when going to bed, but at least 3 of the 6 generally wake up in the middle of the night sweating because of the nature of the heat.

    We have a family of 6, use LP gas for everything except our stove (water heater, dryer, cooktop, gas grill) and our average LP usage is around 900 gallons (2 fills/year). I installed the radiant heat system (hot water heater, pumps, controls, etc), my builder installed the radiant floor heat tubes; if I recall correctly, total HVAC cost (radiant system plus AC) was around $25,000.
     
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