Need help with new insulation question

[Libertarian01]

Friends of mine bought a new home several monthes ago and found the insulation very lacking.

So a few weeks ago they paid someone to come out and put standard, cellulose insulation in the home. The insulation guy is supposed to come back to insulate the garage as there is NO insulation in it at all.

However, there is a problem. Apparently, my buddy Jack is having a severe problem breathing in the home now. It is so bad he has even gone to the doctor who has put him on a nebulizer and given him a shot for allergies.

They have called the insulation guy to hold off on the garage for a bit, possibly looking at alternative insulation materials. The problem is that if Jack continues to have problems breathing that situation cannot continue and the brand new insulation will have to be taken out at substantial cost, while still having to pay for insulation all over again.

I am told the insulation guy says he's never heard of this before, beyond people have a problem maybe on the first day or two as dust and whatnot settles.

So my question is: what can be done to help the situation if this is indeed the case?

They are thinking of putting a plastic sheet over the insulation to keep it from blowing around but I wonder about moisture buildup.

There was no cover to the attic door in the garage, which is attached, and the wind blew like hell through there on the last weekend it was really windy. They have since put up a door on the garage attic entrance, but they wonder about the dust getting into heating or ventilation ducts, thus the thought of plastic over insulation.

There is nothing else in the timeline that would explain this reaction Jack is having. Even the doctors exam shows no respiratory or sinus infection, so it isn't a passing illness. He had no problems in the home until the insulation was installed.

Any help or thoughts would be greatly appreciated! I don't want to see them have to spend a couple grand to remove everything just to do it all over again.

Thanks,

Doug

 

[maxwelhse]

It might be a dumb question, but can he just get out of the house for a few days and see if his symptoms improve?

 

[JeepHammer]

Ditto.
Remove from environment and observe.

'Cellulose' is a generic term that applies to a large range of materials, from old newspaper to shredded blue jeans or mined minerals.
Specifically what is the base material?

'Cellulose' is treated with an even wide range of chemicals, to prevent rodent infestation, to prevent insect infestation, to stop mold/fungus, to fire retardant...
What specifically was the cellulose treated with?

What the cellulose BASE MATERIAL is, and what the cellulose was TREATED WITH are good places to start when tracking down the specific thing your friend is reacting to...

If the insulation wasn't SPECIFICALLY hypoallergenic, then it's a HUGE crapshoot what's in the insulation.
If the insulation was made outside the US, you can forget about what the bags say, and you can forget about product liability insurance.

Was the cellulose BLOWN in, if so, it's EVERYWHERE in the home currently, only cleaning EVERYTHING will remove it from the living quarters.
If the home is older and 'Leaky' it will find its way back into the living quarters eventually...
All cracks & vents will need to be sealed up to separate the insulation from the living quarters.

Removing blown in cellulose, particularly from walls, is nearly impossible without removing the wall board material entirely, removing insulation, then using a sealer to trap what couldn't be removed (usually by vacuum).

Sorry this sounds bad, but your friend isn't the first to have these issues...
It's all over the industry, and thousands, maybe millions suffer from the very same thing since there is little or no regulation, and little to no education/licencing required, it's EVERYWHERE.

Imported construction materials & insulation is the worst.
I got sick/poisoned just being in a closed room with drywall from China that wasn't even installed yet, it was dosed with formaldehyde.
A family about three miles from here nearly died when insulation from china dosed with cyanide nearly killed them before they figured it out, and it was a brand new home.
Just a few miles up the road several Amish/Mennonite workers were poisoned when working with OSB/engineered materials that were treated with toxins. Again, the base material (OSB) was imported...

Not that you can't get poisoned from US made products, carpets & construction adhesives being big culprits, but for decades treated lumber was toxified with heavy metals... But it's a LOT less likely.

 

[Mgderf]

Yes, I've heared of this, but it not an everyday occurrance, thank goodness.
Unfortunately you are probably looking at complete removal and replacement with different materials.

Whatever you do, do NOT let them put plastic on top of the insulation.
Any insulation vapor barrier needs to be in contact with the ceiling material, and not on top of the insulation.
You are correct in assuming that it could cause serious moisture issues, leading to mold and very unhealthy conditions.

 

[churchmouse]

In all my years in the HVAC trades I have never heard of this long term. Once the materials settle in the dust etc is gone.
Question......is there a hole in the return or supply duct that could be introducing this into the house. More to the return duct as it is in a negative static. Supply would blow the material around but it getting into the house in enough quantity to cause this is questionable.

Strange.

 

[JeepHammer]

What Church Mouse said, with the exception of allergic sensitivities.
That's why I recommended finding out EXACTLY what is in the insulation.
If this persists after sealing up & cleaning, the next step might be an allergist to get tested.
Once under control, Allergy pills being cheaper than insulation removal if it's not a toxin.

I don't do well with coconut, and bee stings can kill me...
You would be amazed how much stuff has coconut in it.
Nothing quite like eating a candy bar and then spending 48 hours floating in the bathtub so the hives don't rub on anything...
Getting old sucks!

 

[Kernal1984]

There is a lot of respiratory stuff going around in my area with one of the symptoms being difficulty breathing, my dad(79 yrs old) just had a bought with it that lasted about 2 weeks but the doctor didnt diagnose him with anything in particular.

I'll second the thought of that being odd it would effect him so severely unless is was continually being introduced into the home the a hole in the duct work or if the access is still open in the garage it could be drawn in through the garage entry to the home by air moving through the soffit vents and down through the attic access.

Best of luck to your friend in figuring out whats going on.

 

[Libertarian01]

First, THANK YOU to everyone! We really appreciate the input.

Maxwelhse and JeepHammer,

The idea of moving out for a day or two (2) is not opposed. However, Jack just got a massive shot from the doctor and is on the seven (7) day steroids, so he is doing fine, for now. Moving out today wouldn't mean much right now as the dope is helping. That said, they may consider it in a little more than a week once the dope is gone.

Jeep,

I passed on the details of your post and Jack did take a container bag to the doctor to have him check it out. Hillary didn't know the contents but they are going to go over it.


Church,

The home is goofy. Apparently built about 15 years ago by a guy from the middle east. He contracted the work himself and we are guessing that coming from a warm region didn't consider insulation much. That said, there was an opening from the attic to the garage that was WIDE open, as in with NO door on it. Jack has since put a door on it. From what I hear the wind was huge last weekend (or before when it was installed) and a bunch blew through the garage and when the door was opened and closed into the house.

Jack has lung sensitivity issues. Whenever he has a problem he coughs or hacks, so his sensitivity is higher than normal. The doctor is guessing an allergy but to exactly what we don't know.

I will ask them about a hole in the return or supply duct tonight.

To All,

Besides JeepHammer, has anyone else heard that this would be a well know industry problem? The guy they used was one (1) of only three (3) the power company has approved to do insulation work. We know that doesn't mean much, but it's a higher bar than nothing.

Again, thanks for the thoughts and I'll get back with everyone.

Regards,

Doug

 

[maxwelhse]

The guy they used was one (1) of only three (3) the power company has approved to do insulation work. We know that doesn't mean much, but it's a higher bar than nothing.

Another dumb question... Has he asked the insulation guy about it?

 

[Libertarian01]

Another dumb question... Has he asked the insulation guy about it?

Yes. They did talk to the insulation guy. I wasn't there, but my understanding is that the guy said this was the first time he'd ever had anyone have an issue, beyond a day or two of the dust settling. Once a day or so had passed no complaints from anyone he'd installed with before.

Doug

 

[maxwelhse]

Did he have a big company like Momper do it or just sort of a one man deal? If it's a big company, maybe a supervisor would be willing to come out and have a courtesy look at the ducts and such to make sure nothing was accidentally dislodged?

For that matter, maybe call up one of the HVAC contractors in town and see if they'll do an inspection. I've heard almost nothing but bad about Korte, but the one time I called them out to my place the dude they sent did an awesome job of diagnosing what ended up being several installation errors of my HVAC system (the largest of which was that someone 100% blocked the return air duct by literally installing the floor on top of it and walling it off... took that guy a couple of hours to find that one, because who would imagine something like that?) that my useless home inspector missed. Charged me like $300 to do so, but, got the job done.

Anyhow. Sounds like your buddy is on the mend at the moment. Let's hope it was just dust kicked up from that weirdness in the attic and this will fix itself. Good luck to him!

 

[Libertarian01]

I spoke w/ Jack & Hillary last night. Hillary did find out a bit about the insulation.

It is made right here, locally, in Ossian, Indiana. It is just south of Fort Wayne about ten (10) minutes. In her phone call with the company they claimed it is supposedly hypoallergenic. They told her there was no formaldehyde in it, along with a few other things. However, they did not tell her what WAS in it. So after reading your ideas she sent them an email asking them to list everything that IS in it, along with the base ingredient(s).

Today they were going to go shopping for a few hours. They were going to wipe everything down, dust the hell out of the place, and leave all the windows open while they are gone, trying to air the place out. That was my idea, so I hope it's a goodun.

They are going to wait a few days and see if the airing, the dusting, and the settling helps enough. If not, plan B is going to hire an expert to inspect all of the duct work and ceiling areas to check for leaks or holes.

So, some progress is being made. They are also using three (3) air filters throughout the house. It is a big house. Supposedly those are helping.

Whenever Jack steps outside for a little bit he can breathe much easier in the fresh air. So with that in mind, combined with the air filters helping, it does appear that this evidence does suggest that it is something to do with the new insulation. What, is unknown, but something.

Regards,

Doug

 

[singlestacksig]

There may be another cause, some what created by the insulation. If the guy who planned the building did not plan for insulation , he may have not planned for ventilation once there was insulation.. you could be trapping vapors in the house that you did not notice before.. check for a good vapor barrier in the basement / crawl space.. check soil stack vent..
so on..

 

[JeepHammer]

So, previous sensitivity issues... That's new information.

Insulation MUST have some flame retardant, and with cellulose that's often boric acid.
It helps with flame retardation, bugs & rodents.
Roach & ant control powder is often boric acid.

If you want pure facts from a reliable source,
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAJegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1-MJTUCQtqvGOX3dgEVFlg

A search of "Toxic Homes Cellulose Insulation" will have you reading for weeks..

 

[WebSnyper]

They should be able to get an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) from the insulation manufacturer I'd think. That should tell them what is "supposed" to be in it.

Something like this: http://www.energycontrolcellulose.com/pdf/Updated MSDS FW.pdf

 

[russc2542]

If the guy already has high sensitivity, it doesn't matter what's in it chemically as the physical presence of the dust may be the irritant. If it's this bad now, I suspect that while his condition may improve as the dust settles, it'll never go away altogether. Then again, I do sometimes get accused of pessimism.

Through poor life choices I subjected myself to a high level of secondhand cigarette smoke for less than a year maybe 8 or 10 years ago and have been living with frequent nosebleeds and my sinuses clogging up at the mere mention of illness since. one whiff of mold spores and my sinuses turn to cement for a couple days. I buy tissues by the carton and have to be extra careful around saw/sanding dust. wood isn't horrible but f*** ABS dust.