Turbochargers: Am I missing something?

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  • A 7.62 Exodus

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    I've seen this trend over the last few weeks that is completely over my head. I'm seeing this uptick in people saying to avoid turbo charged, smaller car engines in favor of larger, naturally aspirated engines.

    I don't understand why.

    I understand the additional problems a vehicle can run into if a turbo goes out, how it adds more moving parts, etc, but I can't seem to figure out why now? Every diesel engine is turbo charged, most car companies are offering a turbo charged vehicle in some shape or form, I even drive a turbo 4-banger and love it. So where has this hate come all of a sudden? Is there really any true merit to these comments, or is it all based on a ton of personal preferences?
     

    JeepHammer

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    There is the obvious, smaller car engines aren't all that heavy built,
    Boost pressures & combustion temps can further wear out the engine sooner than natural aspiration.
    Getting more than a million miles out of a big truck engine is pretty common, but the engine was designed from the ground up (not a common engine adapted over) to run a turbo under high boost pressure.

    Converted (car) engines are particularly problematic often times since they are often built as light weight as possible without taking into consideration the heat/pressure, and vibration a turbo engine produces.

    'Tuners' have a habit of cranking things up even more, so longevity decreases.

    People often don't know how to drive a turbo car, so they damage by abuse.
    Jacking the throttle throws the impeller/turbine shaft back and forth, slamming throttle closed causes back pressure surging, which is really hard on impeller, etc.

    Smaller turbos turn much faster than larger engine turbos, so they wear out much faster.

    And don't forget since most people don't fully understand how boosted engines work (they think a carb 'Sucks' air in) it's FM (freaking magic) to them, and therefore must be complicated & trouble prone.
    Same goes for superchargers.
    A big dumb hunk of aluminum with basically wheel bearings on both ends baffles them...

    A lot of issues were solved when digital controls came along.
    When you let up on the throttle, the TPS detects it and immediately opens the waste gate so surging problems are greatly reduced.
    High pressure fuel injectors solve a lot of fuel delivery problems.
     

    Sigblitz

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    My 4 cylinder has one. Like so many small turbo engines, I don't even know it's there.

    5McDlp4.jpg

    bLj1HxX.jpg
     

    indykid

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    Most people don't realize that the engine is designed to operate at "normal operating temperature". When starting cold, until the engine heats up and all parts are at operating tolerance (tempreature), a sudden surge of boost pressure can break things a lot sooner than a naturally aspirated engine. Also if the oil is cold it doesn't flow was efficiently which also can hurt engine that get sudden boost just after start up.

    On the other end, after a hard drive, that turbo can be spinning tens of thousands of RPM, and take several seconds to spool down. If shut off too soon that turbo is now spinning with no oil pressure. In addition, after a hard drive the boosted engine is very hot and needs to cool down a bit itself. While a half minute of idle before shutting off a turbocharged engine might be a pain, it could mean the difference between many miles of trouble free driving and complaining about how bad turbos are.
     

    dieselmudder

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    Jeephammers explanation was spot on. Even in the big truck, heavy equipment world they are trying to pull more power. From smaller engines, this results in higher rpms, higher combustion temps (which they also force to reduce emissions). And heavier loads. Even big name diesel engines that were built for turbo use, are seeing much shorter life spans.

    Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk
     

    Sigblitz

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    I bought my Cruze turbo for the 37mpg. But, it doesn't get the advertised milage, and it's all highway miles at 60 on cruise control. It gets about 31. So, they lied.
     

    A 7.62 Exodus

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    I bought my Cruze turbo for the 37mpg. But, it doesn't get the advertised milage, and it's all highway miles at 60 on cruise control. It gets about 31. So, they lied.
    This sucks to hear, but I have heard of it across the board. I'm actually getting a littler better MPG than advertised in my 2.0L EcoBoost, but this was something I was concerned about before getting my car
     

    A 7.62 Exodus

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    There is the obvious, smaller car engines aren't all that heavy built,
    Boost pressures & combustion temps can further wear out the engine sooner than natural aspiration.
    Getting more than a million miles out of a big truck engine is pretty common, but the engine was designed from the ground up (not a common engine adapted over) to run a turbo under high boost pressure.

    Converted (car) engines are particularly problematic often times since they are often built as light weight as possible without taking into consideration the heat/pressure, and vibration a turbo engine produces.

    'Tuners' have a habit of cranking things up even more, so longevity decreases.

    People often don't know how to drive a turbo car, so they damage by abuse.
    Jacking the throttle throws the impeller/turbine shaft back and forth, slamming throttle closed causes back pressure surging, which is really hard on impeller, etc.

    Smaller turbos turn much faster than larger engine turbos, so they wear out much faster.

    And don't forget since most people don't fully understand how boosted engines work (they think a carb 'Sucks' air in) it's FM (freaking magic) to them, and therefore must be complicated & trouble prone.
    Same goes for superchargers.
    A big dumb hunk of aluminum with basically wheel bearings on both ends baffles them...

    A lot of issues were solved when digital controls came along.
    When you let up on the throttle, the TPS detects it and immediately opens the waste gate so surging problems are greatly reduced.
    High pressure fuel injectors solve a lot of fuel delivery problems.
    This all makes perfect sense to me. Very well put! Have some rep
     

    worddoer

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    I can only attest to my Chevy Sonic Turbo. It was such a fun commuter car to drive. It was fast enough to be fun, but not really sports car fast.

    On interstate trips I usually got 42mpg. So that was nice.

    Problem is, because of the extra strain and heat that a turbo causes, an engine must be built more durable than normal to achieve the same life span that a naturally aspirated engine can attain. For a long time, diesel engines were thought of as heavy use engines and this was factored into the design, materials and assembly of the engine. That is why historically they had longer lifespans.

    Not all, but many turbos can be very finicky about fuel octane levels or brands....mine was.

    Also, unless you want to fry your engine early, you pretty much need to run a very high quality full synthetic oil or the heat in the turbo will bake your oil, cause sludge, and start plugging things up in the oil passages causing oil starvation to parts of the engine. I ran Mobile 1.....but I have heard that Royle Purple, Red Line and Amsoil are also good choices for turbo'd cars.

    Turbo's are also harder on the antifreeze as must modern turbos are partially or completely water cooled.

    When it's all said and done, unless you REALLY need to extra performance or mileage that a turbo can offer, you life will be simpler with a naturally aspirated engine in your car. That Sonic got traded off and all I have now are naturally aspirated cars.

    EDIT: DOH....It looks like JeepHammer beat me to it. Good info there.
     

    rhino

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    I've seen this trend over the last few weeks that is completely over my head. I'm seeing this uptick in people saying to avoid turbo charged, smaller car engines in favor of larger, naturally aspirated engines.

    I don't understand why.

    I understand the additional problems a vehicle can run into if a turbo goes out, how it adds more moving parts, etc, but I can't seem to figure out why now? Every diesel engine is turbo charged, most car companies are offering a turbo charged vehicle in some shape or form, I even drive a turbo 4-banger and love it. So where has this hate come all of a sudden? Is there really any true merit to these comments, or is it all based on a ton of personal preferences?


    The biggest issue is additional heat when a turbocharged engine is operating, especially at higher RPM. Higher temps accelerate wear on just about everything. Most commercially produced vehicles are not going to incorporate measures to mitigate the effects (such as oil coolers). Bigger engines are loafing along at lower RPM and lower temps to produce the same amount of power. It's another situation where you can't get somethin' f'r nothin'.
     

    Spear Dane

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    I've seen this trend over the last few weeks that is completely over my head. I'm seeing this uptick in people saying to avoid turbo charged, smaller car engines in favor of larger, naturally aspirated engines.

    I don't understand why.

    I understand the additional problems a vehicle can run into if a turbo goes out, how it adds more moving parts, etc, but I can't seem to figure out why now? Every diesel engine is turbo charged, most car companies are offering a turbo charged vehicle in some shape or form, I even drive a turbo 4-banger and love it. So where has this hate come all of a sudden? Is there really any true merit to these comments, or is it all based on a ton of personal preferences?

    Dunno why you think this is some new thing. I've been avoiding turbo's at all costs since the late 80s. They have their place, but it's not on a gas engined daily driver. Diesels have them because diesels need them. Diesel fuel does not have the same energy density as gasoline. Hell you can drop a lit cigarette into a pool of diesel while standing in it and be perfectly safe. It does not -want- to burn and needs coercion. That's why many WW2 tanks were diesels and why our gas powered Shermans were called "Ronsons"
     

    eldirector

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    Actually, diesel has a greater energy density than gasoline. 38.6 MJ/l for diesel vs. 34.2 MJ/l for gasoline.

    Gasoline's flash point is -46* F. So, there are plenty of gas vapors at room temp to ignite. Diesel's flash point is up around 126* F. No vapor to ignite.

    Diesel actually has lower autoignition temp (410* vs 536*), which is why it can ignite under a lower compression than gas.
     

    churchmouse

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    Turbos are driven by the exhaust. Exhaust is hot. Heat kills if not managed properly. This proper management means a tighter maintenance schedule.
    Most folks are not dilligent enough to own a Turbo power plant. As already mentioned oil is a huge concern as is fuel.

    The endless search for something from nothing has drve us to little engines. Little engines have a place. But again folks want more from less so they put boost on little engines. This increases maint by a good %.

    It is hard to get folks to rotate tires let alone pay attention to the antifreeze.

    My sister bought a Turbo Buick G body (Grand National) used back in the day. I told her of the maint. routine when she bought the car and she laughed it off. Cheap gas/oil and too many hours operation between oil changes killed the original turbo and then the engine. I rebuilt the engine and put the new turbo in it. She proceeded to kill them again.

    The new offerings have fuel injection and ECU's with much tighter cntrol on the operation and are miles ahead of the oldschool offerings but they still require more maint.

    I love boost. It is very cool. But it is not free.
     
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    JeepHammer

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    The biggest problems with turbos until the 80s was fuel delivery.
    While not as bad as supercharged engines, a turbo engine can require fuel 3X faster.
    That's not 3X as much fuel, that's time, 3X faster than a NA (Naturally Aspirated) engine does.
    Carbs simply weren't desigend to deliver fuel that fast...
    It took mechanical fuel injection to deliver fuel that fast, and that's extra weight & an entirely different system just to support the turbo/super charger.

    In the 80s, we got computer controls fast enough to add fuel without a big mechanical fuel pump, big black hoses, an all the big heavy hardware.
    Guys racing back then remember the rows of velocity stacks, big black hoses, big engine driven pumps, return valves (barrel valves) and constantly changing 'Buttons' (fuel flow orifice, 'Jets' of sorts).
    The drag racing guys got off easy, they had idle & full throttle,
    But the circle track guys had to keep engines alive during part throttle, and they actually stayed with carbs longer.
    Indy still has a 'Carb Day' for instance, and that is a hold over from how long corner turners used carbs.

    In the early 80s check released a multi injector electronic fuel injection system and the 'Car Guys' ran with it!

    From slaving more injectors on the trigger signal, to mashing the fuel pressure cans in a vice to increase pressure, they were off to the races literally!
    '82 saw the release of the Chevy 'Cross Fire' injection,
    By '84 an actual 265 cubic inch Buick engine with turbo was knocking on the back door of the 700 inch NA engines in Pro Stock...
    In '86 Buddy Ingersoll (R.I.P.) was in the process of stomping the reigning king of Pro Stock, Bob Glidden, and got regulated (rule book whipped) out of existence in Pro Stock.

    That got everyone's attention!

    -------

    The 'Trick' was build a lower end just like you would for an honest 450 HP car.
    Steel crank, steel rods, straighten out the oil system,
    Use the best pistons you can find, get rid of all those super light pistons, get the compression ring back down the piston where it belongs, float the wrist pin like you would on a circle track car,
    And get a thick deck on the piston to take the pressure, transfer the heat to the cylinder walls.

    The cam is tricky, drop the overlap, boosted engines don't need big overlap since you are force feeding them,
    You don't need as much intake with boost, but you do need time for exhaust to do its job.
    You also don't need huge intake valves and all the oversized, slicked up intake track,
    You do need a big exhaust valve and unimpeded exhaust flow so exhaust actually exits...

    If you run 7 psig boost or more, 'O' ring the heads!
    Not the 'O' ring head gaskets, but actual 'O' ring grooves cut into the head.
    The cylinder is STARTING at +7 psig, and compression is going to send the cylinder pressure to the moon!
    It's pretty impressive (but costly) to see the best NA head gaskets squeezed out past the head bolts,
    And this is also why you want a thick head on the piston, it MUST hold those cylinder pressures.

    Now, you have all that weight way out on the end of a connecting rod, so keep in mind the VELOCITY of that weight at high RPM.
    The inertia is going to try to rip the piston off the wrist pin, which is why you bush & float the wrist pin, and use steel rods.
    Use GEARING to keep that RPM reasonable.
    Shorter stroke (gasoline) engines usually live longer since you don't build the piston velocity in the first place.

    This is all still less expensive than roller cams, rev kits, super light weight pistons, all the stuff you need to make a NA engine get way up in the RPM range to make comparable power, and let's not forget about all that intake porting & polishing, ultra light valves, ect.
    Build a solid bottom end, keep the compression reasonable, screw on a blower or turbo...
     

    churchmouse

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    Well stated JH.
    So many variables.
    I am a roots style SC kind of guy. This is a big inch BB chev in my 64 S/S that ran 8" of boost on pump gas. If I wanted some serious stupid loud peddel time Cam 2 was the call. A few minor tune changes and 3rd gear drifting was no stretch.
    Boost is so damned cool........but costly to achieve...:cool:
    qvjfMEd.jpg
     

    JeepHammer

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    What Church Mouse said.

    What we did on race cars was a pressurized tube or bag, activated by the key switch.
    Boda & Accusump by name.
    When you activate the key switch a solenoid dumps oil under pressure on the turbo bearings.
    When you cut the key switch off, the solenoid closes and retains pressure.

    What you can't explain to people, the turbo is the LAST thing to get oil when the engine fires, and it's the FIRST thing to stop getting oil when you shut down.
    Starting a turbo engine then immediately revving it is the absloute worst thing you can do,
    Followed by revving the engine then shutting it off.
    Nothing like revving that turbo up to 150,000 rpm WITH NO OIL, and you do it on both ends of the drive cycle it won't be there long...

    A MUCH larger oil return line than the delivery line is something *I* personally require.
    Noticing the return lines were ALWAYS caked with sludge and mostly blocked off...
    You can't get oil in if it can't get oil out, and knowing the oil is SERIOUSLY overheated by the turbo, the turbo was simply cooking the oil into coke/sludge.
    A larger return line ensures no restrictions or blockages.

    Unless it's a electronic solenoid on the waste gate (crack pipe!) There will be a rubber or plastic vacuum line from intake to waste gate...
    (See the vacuum nipples on the lawn mower picture, about the 3rd post...)
    ANY of those connections leak, and the waste gate doesn't open, or opens slow, and when you back out of the throttle the pressure goes to the moon and breaks off impeller blades.
    Ever seen what a hunk of metal will do in a blender at 150,000 RPM?

    Then there are the guys that 'Throttle Jack', rev up, slam the throttle shut, rev back up, slam shut....
    That is MURDER of the turbo!
    First, you are slamming the impeller & turbine wheels off the housing, back & forth against the trust faces,
    Second, you are back pressuring the impeller like crazy, it's compressing at fill speed and you slam the throttle shut and pressure/density goes to the moon, you get pressure reversion...
    Now this is hard to follow for some people, while the air gets MUCH 'Thicker' (more dense) under pressure, it bounces back the super sonic sound waves the blades make back into the blades.
    It's not just pressure, it's ultrasonic shockwaves impacting the blades, an ultra fast jack hammer trying to separate blades from hub!
    Those shock waves 'Normally' proceed down the intake tract and smooth out, but when the pressure rises they are reflected back into the compressor.

    There is a reason big truck turbos live longer, being larger, the turbos usually turn slower RPMs,
    They usually have much stronger impellers, shafts & turbine wheels,
    Most of the large diesel engines won't let you operate them at 10 or 15 psig oil pressure,
    The diesel engine gains, and looses RPM much slower, and big engines operate at relatively steady RPM, no throttle jacking.

    Once we taught the drivers to operate a turbo engine, we could crank the pressure & power up a lot more and make some REAL power.
    It's like any other specialized piece of equipment, follow the basic rules and it does fine, abuse it and you won't have it long.

    High TEMP oil (synthetics) do a better job,
    The turbo is MUCH harder on oil, so change it at specified intervals. You CAN shred oil, simply break it apart, so it might not *Look Bad* or smell bad, but the turbo knows the difference (so do the rest of your bearings!)...
    High compression/high RPM NA engines are just as hard on oil, it's not exclusively a turbo thing, all 'Performance' engines are hard on oil.

    CHECK THE RETURN LINE!
    When it's not a failed crack pipe, or broken blades, you can bet a failed turbo it's a blocked oil return line.
    Some dealerships slapped a new turbo on and never changed or cleaned the return lines, and that got turbos a reputation for failure.
    Put a new turbo on a blocked return line and it will fail in short order, like 5,000 miles short...
    (And every car guy has heard that story, "It keeps eating turbos...")

    Some big trucks have gone so far as to use speciality fasteners on return lines TRYING to get the mechanics to remove the line from the truck WITH the turbo, this was a last ditch effort to get the mechanic to look/clean out the return line...

    My turbo vehicles had an Accusump to deliver oil to a dry turbo, and those vehicles got oil pumps when they needed them.
    You MUST have oil pressure with a turbo. Period.
    An engine that holds 10-15 psig oil pressure IS NOT going to keep a turbo alive.
    At operating speed, a turbo MUST HAVE 35-45 psig minimum to stay alive. It's an oil float bearing, and pressure is an absloute requirement.
     

    Sigblitz

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    Actually, diesel has a greater energy density than gasoline. 38.6 MJ/l for diesel vs. 34.2 MJ/l for gasoline.

    Gasoline's flash point is -46* F. So, there are plenty of gas vapors at room temp to ignite. Diesel's flash point is up around 126* F. No vapor to ignite.

    Diesel actually has lower autoignition temp (410* vs 536*), which is why it can ignite under a lower compression than gas.

    Gas is a flammable fuel. Diesel is combustible. Diesel ignites under high compression, about 28 to 1, so no spark needed. The bigger the turbo, the more fuel you can feed it and make more power.
     

    Thor

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    As to the OP: If you buy it and it came from the manufacturer with a turbo, warranty and what not you know it was designed to run for the expected life of the vehicle so you're fine.

    If it was aftermarket installed by a shop or owner than you should make sure it was done right...and never mind that warranty thing. When you up the power beyond design specs look for the next weak link in the power train that will break.
     

    JeepHammer

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    Well stated JH.
    So many variables.
    I am a roots style SC kind of guy. This is a big inch BB chev in my 64 S/S that ran 8" of boost on pump gas. If I wanted some serious stupid loud peddel time Cam 2 was the call. A few minor tune changes and 3rd gear drifting was no stretch.
    Boost is so damned cool........but costly to achieve...:cool:
    qvjfMEd.jpg

    I started a turbo guy, simply because I cut my teeth on turbos.
    I LIKE turbos, but I LOVE superchargers!

    Big stupid hunk of aluminum, solid built bottom end, everything in by 5,500 RPM where it's all useable, what's not to like?!?
    Pick out a pickup truck block with 4 bolt mains, get steel crank & rods, forged lower compression pistons, use a blower cam, then go out and melt tires!

    Drives & idles like Grandma's grocery getter, and slaps the crap out of any & all comers!

    It took me an actual education to learn about blowers, where I cobbled together & learned turbos seat of pants...
    Lots of scrapped engines, lots of fires/failures, but I was working with junkyard parts with turbos.
    If I was going to shell out cubic dollars I wanted an education in blowers.

    I learned in the front end of roller cams, rev kits, tunnel rams, hours & hours of head & porting work, RPM ranges that let you drive over the crank & see through the block when you screwed all that complicated crap up...
    My first blower engine was a pickup truck block/crank & rods, a set of high quality pistons, no super rare or expensive heads, and a blower.
    Work out fuel & ignition and it simply RAN!

    Back then, $1,300 screwed on and off to kick the money out of the doctor's & lawyer's kids...
    I actually had to disconnect brake lights so they didn't know I was sand bagging them so I could skin them again in a couple weeks!
    The moral of the story is, see under the hood, that 'Beater' might not be the slug you think it is... ;)
     
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