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  • bocefus78

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    Apr 9, 2014
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    Hamilton Co.
    A HUGE thank you to our very own churchmouse and his sil for taking the time to walk me thru replacing my 18 year old hvac system. He educated me on properly upsizing My unit for My needs.

    The new unit moves much more air, the compressor is twice as quiet as the old one, and most importantly, his pricing was thousands cheaper than the large companies.

    Anyone in the Indy area needing a good install should contact him.

    Thanks again guys :)
     

    jkaetz

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    The more i learn about HVAC, the more I'm greatful that CM and others on INGO are willing to share their expertise with us. In general I've discovered that most "techs" are parts changers or sales people and rarely do the job right but instead do whatever to get on to the next job. Even the systems put into brand new houses are often undersized and full of shortcuts. Markups are insane and rarely will you see what is truly equipment cost vs labor.
     

    DocIndy

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    The more i learn about HVAC, the more I'm greatful that CM and others on INGO are willing to share their expertise with us. In general I've discovered that most "techs" are parts changers or sales people and rarely do the job right but instead do whatever to get on to the next job. Even the systems put into brand new houses are often undersized and full of shortcuts. Markups are insane and rarely will you see what is truly equipment cost vs labor.

    i take it your Bosch is purring along? :D. I liked that system so well, I installed the same thing in my house.
     

    DocIndy

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    I need to do some investigating into this product line. Old dog/new tricks thing you know.

    it must have something going for it since three distributors are carrying it now. They just released a 20 SEER model this year... that’s what I installed in my house to help offset the monthly LP bills from last winter. It’s stupid quiet and my local REMC kicked me a $750 rebate....Winning!
     

    churchmouse

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    it must have something going for it since three distributors are carrying it now. They just released a 20 SEER model this year... that’s what I installed in my house to help offset the monthly LP bills from last winter. It’s stupid quiet and my local REMC kicked me a $750 rebate....Winning!

    Man this is getting pretty amazing.
     

    jkaetz

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    Indianapolis
    i take it your Bosch is purring along? :D. I liked that system so well, I installed the same thing in my house.
    It is indeed. My ductwork on the other hand is putting up a fight. :D Even with my additions I still can't push much beyond 1700 CFM. If I do TESP climbs and pretty much negates any extra airflow. I believe at this point I need to look into the return side as I'm seeing roughly .2x" wc on the supply side going through the wet coil and about .4x" wc on the return side after the filter @ 1700 CFM. Pre filter pressure is in the .2x range. Bumping the CFM up seems to just increase the return pressure drop. Part of me wonders if the return plenum is big enough as it doesn't seem like the returns are really pulling a lot of air. If I pull the blower door and effectively drop the return pressure to 0 the supply side doesn't climb much even at the 2000 CFM setting.

    The Bosch condensor seems to be a fantastic piece of equpment. I have the low stage blower speed set at 1300 CFM and the high stage at 1700. The thermostats set the blower to low or high stage and the Bosch happily adjusts its output to match the air flowing over the coil. Under low load evenings the condensor only sounds like a slightly loud refridgerator and you can't even hear the condensor fan running. When the temp climbed up in the 90's with such high humidity this summer I did switch it to its lower coil temp for some extra cooling and dehumidification. Just switched it back this past week and of course it got hot again but I don't think I need as much dehumidifcation at this point.

    I need to do some investigating into this product line. Old dog/new tricks thing you know.
    In my ameture HVAC opinion, it slots in nicely between the single stage condensors and the crazy expensive 5 stage inverter units from ICP. Lots of the benefits without the complicated and proprietary controls. When paired with a single stage system its benefits are that it will offer two coil temperatures (I believe 37 or 42 degrees) and will drop its output to avoid freezing the coil if the airflow is restricted by a dirty filter or other airflow restriction. Where it really shines is if it is paired with a multi stage blower. In theory, you could vary the blower speed based on the outdoor conditions and the condensor would simply adjust to match. 4 wire setup, common, O/B signal, run signal, and a return signal for aux heat when it needs to defrost. I may or may not have read and learned waay too much about HVAC this year. :):

    In my case I have the thermostats do the job of staging up and down based on the temp difference from the setpoint. Most of the time the system runs in the low stage only using the high stage when it's really hot or dropping the temp before we go to bed. The results have been a much more comfy house than last year, enough capacity to handle the temp extremes and still getting nice long runtimes and good dehumidification when it is more mild out.
     

    jkaetz

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    hat is great to hear JK. The way your home is laid out getting every area comfortable is a task.
    Yes, and the amount of foolisness I've discovered has been staggering. I really want to slap the installers and the ductwork designer if the plans were followed. The main floor only has about a 4' trunk and started with only a 6", 7", and 8" duct. The 7 and 8 inch runs went to three registers and were supposed to condition the entire back side of the house full of windows and the kitchen. I added two more 8" runs & registers and enlarged one of the existing registers in that space. The difference was huge without being overpowering. Way underducted for the heat load from those windows. The 6" duct was the worst. It came off the trunk immediately following the zone damper and then made a 180 to go run the perimeter of the house and cool the front door, office, and half bath. Even with the new blower at 2000 cfm there was barely any air coming from those vents. I wanted to get another run in that area but ran out of motivation to cut holes in the basement ceiling. :) My current solution is an inline fan right after the takeoff and it seems to be doing the job. The 2nd floor isn't too bad on the supply side but I'm concerned with the return situation since most of the bedroom doors are being pushed closed even though they all have returns in them. I want to look into that more closely but while the wifey has tolerated holes in the basement ceiling I'm not sure she'd be as forgiving of holes in the upper floor walls while I try to see what's going on. :D Ahh the joys of homeownership.
     

    churchmouse

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    Yes, and the amount of foolisness I've discovered has been staggering. I really want to slap the installers and the ductwork designer if the plans were followed. The main floor only has about a 4' trunk and started with only a 6", 7", and 8" duct. The 7 and 8 inch runs went to three registers and were supposed to condition the entire back side of the house full of windows and the kitchen. I added two more 8" runs & registers and enlarged one of the existing registers in that space. The difference was huge without being overpowering. Way underducted for the heat load from those windows. The 6" duct was the worst. It came off the trunk immediately following the zone damper and then made a 180 to go run the perimeter of the house and cool the front door, office, and half bath. Even with the new blower at 2000 cfm there was barely any air coming from those vents. I wanted to get another run in that area but ran out of motivation to cut holes in the basement ceiling. :) My current solution is an inline fan right after the takeoff and it seems to be doing the job. The 2nd floor isn't too bad on the supply side but I'm concerned with the return situation since most of the bedroom doors are being pushed closed even though they all have returns in them. I want to look into that more closely but while the wifey has tolerated holes in the basement ceiling I'm not sure she'd be as forgiving of holes in the upper floor walls while I try to see what's going on. :D Ahh the joys of homeownership.

    The 1st indicator you are short on return is when you attempt to remove the blower door when the fan is running. How much resistance do you experience. A lot will be a red flag. Normal just a bit of resistance not so much. Especially with the fan at full song.
    Also pulling the door screws with the current draw on the motor. Sounds crazy but it does.
     

    DocIndy

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    Jk found out the hard way that a zone system isn’t the answer for a undersized system. The equipment on top of the cobbled up duct “design” (and I am using the term very loosely) all add to a system that struggles to keep the stats satisfied and the energy bills manageable. The Bosch high efficiency equipment is much more cost effective than the upper level Carrier/Bryant/Trane/Lennox(yuck). I’m not a fan of Goodman/Amanna/Daikin residential equipment.
     

    churchmouse

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    Jk found out the hard way that a zone system isn’t the answer for a undersized system. The equipment on top of the cobbled up duct “design” (and I am using the term very loosely) all add to a system that struggles to keep the stats satisfied and the energy bills manageable. The Bosch high efficiency equipment is much more cost effective than the upper level Carrier/Bryant/Trane/Lennox(yuck). I’m not a fan of Goodman/Amanna/Daikin residential equipment.

    Truth here. Some of the most beautiful homes have the absolute worst HVAC systems in them. Bullets need to be bitten and 2 systems installed.
    Until you put the Bosch line in my sights I would never ever even consider installing anything past a 14 seer unit due to the issues I have heard about from the manf. that offer them. JK's Dad is one of those unfortunate folks yet they still use those units.

    Old dog/new tricks.
     

    jkaetz

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    Jan 20, 2009
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    Indianapolis
    The 1st indicator you are short on return is when you attempt to remove the blower door when the fan is running. How much resistance do you experience. A lot will be a red flag. Normal just a bit of resistance not so much. Especially with the fan at full song.
    Also pulling the door screws with the current draw on the motor. Sounds crazy but it does.
    A bit of resistance at 1700 CFM but more when I set it to 2000 CFM for testing. At one point I mapped out the amp draw vs the fan speed and I think to go from 1700 -> 2000 CFM it went from 5-6 amp up to over 8. I also believe it's under 2 amp at 1300 CFM. I don't think the TESP ever went over 1" WC in my testing but according to the CFM chart in the manual I wasn't gaining much airflow due to the increased pressure but was using up more electricity. Thus my currently settled on CFM choices. I don't remember the amp draw changing significantly with the door on or off though. Now you have me curious.

    Jk found out the hard way that a zone system isn’t the answer for a undersized system. The equipment on top of the cobbled up duct “design” (and I am using the term very loosely) all add to a system that struggles to keep the stats satisfied and the energy bills manageable. The Bosch high efficiency equipment is much more cost effective than the upper level Carrier/Bryant/Trane/Lennox(yuck). I’m not a fan of Goodman/Amanna/Daikin residential equipment.
    I knew the ductwork was iffy, but didn't realize how bad it was until I started tearing into it. Now that things are closer to the right size the zoning is working well. Either zone will take the 1300 CFM at .5 " WC or less. The blower then gets to be lazy and the Bosch does its thing. Usually when I check it's drawing around 7-8 amps. They really need a viewing window and external button on the access panel so I can check the diagnostics without undoing 8 screws. :D

    Truth here. Some of the most beautiful homes have the absolute worst HVAC systems in them. Bullets need to be bitten and 2 systems installed.
    Until you put the Bosch line in my sights I would never ever even consider installing anything past a 14 seer unit due to the issues I have heard about from the manf. that offer them. JK's Dad is one of those unfortunate folks yet they still use those units.

    Old dog/new tricks.
    Completely agree about two systems knowing what I know now. I don't think anything outside of completely custom homes actually even offer it though. The builders want to be cheapskates and homeowners don't know what to ask for.

    Funny thing about my Dad's failures, in researching my own system I came across some info about Carrier and Bristol two stage compressors having a high failure rate. I can't verify since his old equipment is gone now but I suspect his was one of these units given the timeframe. His new one is an inverter drive just like the Bosch. Also very quiet and I think 5 output stages. Time will tell how they do. Carrier of course requires their fancy communicating controls to get all five output stages vs just two. More $$$ as well. In my view Bosch containerized all the complexity in the condenser rather than requiring the entire system to be complex. We'll have to wait and see what the industry as a whole thinks about that idea.
     
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