HVAC Question....Trane Dealers?

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  • CHCRandy

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    My daughter and son in law have a Trane Unit in their home. It is heat pump with electric furnace back-up. The unit is about 4 years old. June 2017 it started acting up so they called a Trane/American Standard HVAC company to look at it. They said it was a bad TXV valve for cooling. They had it replaced and all was well...other than Trane wouldn't cover it under warranty because they didn't call the original installer (which they didn't know who it was). 1 year later almost to the date the unit failed again....they called HVAC company back out and it was a bad compressor, because TXV needed for heat failed? They replaced this and had it running fine...until a few days ago. I guess they noticed heat pump was making real loud noise and back-up heat was all that was working. They called the company back who installed compressor and they said compressor was bad again. Daughter then called Trane and Trane sent out the original installer of the unit who said unit was way overcharged! So then they called back the installers of the compressor, they came out today and confirmed unit was overcharged, but said they didn't know why it wouldn't keep running. Heat pump kicks on, runs about 20 minutes then stops working. At this point everyone is pointing fingers and nothing is getting resolved. Trane says warranty is no good because they used a service company other than original installer....even though they are a Trane dealer. Trane says the HVAC company could have transferred warranty for $100...but they never told customers that.

    Bottom line is this unit isnt even 5 years old, 2 compressors, 2 TXV valves(?), about 10 days of missed work, months of $600-700 electric bills and no one owning up to what the hell is wrong with it. I know this is a confusing mess....but what is your guys thoughts? Will an overcharged unit cause major failures? When the first TXV valve was replaced would unit have been recharged?

    Thanks!
     

    churchmouse

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    My friend this mess is only going to end with the Heat pump being replaced as it has been abused.
    Who ever the idiots were that over charged it tried to kill it. And will not fess up to it.
    Residential service is a dice roll.
     

    ChristianPatriot

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    I know this is a confusing mess....but what is your guys thoughts? Will an overcharged unit cause major failures? When the first TXV valve was replaced would unit have been recharged?

    Thanks!

    Overcharging a unit will 100% destroy it. It will cause high head pressure and possibly flooding back to the compressor which will wash out the bearings.

    It’s possible that at the first TXV repair that they pulled out whatever gas was in there and then put it right back in, but I’d doubt it. Even if they did do that, they failed to do a proper startup and verify the charge.
     

    CHCRandy

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    And to be clear...is there 2 TXV valves or 1?

    Supposedly when they replaced the compressor they were there less than 2 hours....the other HVAC company says that it is almost impossible to replace a compressor in 2 hours. How long does it take to do a compressor replacement?

    I appreciate you guys giving me some advice.
     

    ChristianPatriot

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    And to be clear...is there 2 TXV valves or 1?

    Supposedly when they replaced the compressor they were there less than 2 hours....the other HVAC company says that it is almost impossible to replace a compressor in 2 hours. How long does it take to do a compressor replacement?

    I appreciate you guys giving me some advice.

    There are two expansion devices but not necessarily two TXV’s. In my experience, there’s normally a TXV for the cooling and a fixed orfice for the heating.

    Yeah it’s possible to do in two hours but I’d say it’s very difficult, nearly impossible, to do it properly in two hours. Proper refrigerant recovery, real brazing, pressure testing, and pulling a vacuum takes time, no way around it.
     

    churchmouse

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    There are two expansion devices but not necessarily two TXV’s. In my experience, there’s normally a TXV for the cooling and a fixed orfice for the heating.

    Yeah it’s possible to do in two hours but I’d say it’s very difficult, nearly impossible, to do it properly in two hours. Proper refrigerant recovery, real brazing, pressure testing, and pulling a vacuum takes time, no way around it.

    ^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^

    I would lay odds the system might have non-condensable in it. Regardless once the comp gets beat on enough to raise cain it has been hurt. They will not heal themselves.
     

    CHCRandy

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    Thanks guys! I guess they now have it narrowed down to the guy who replaced the outdoor TXV/Stepper(sp?) His service manager came out yesterday and said it was overcharged, compressor toast....but offered no resolution other than saying they would call Trane. I guess when the tech done that TXV there was a data sheet Trane wanted to see if system was within specs....he provided sheet for payment on parts under Trane warranty but did not provide needed data. Trane sent us copies of multiple unanswered requests to the company. Daughter has receipt they paid when outdoor valve replaced and they did list evac and recharging.

    Service manager said it was over by 100 psi? Is that possible? Seems like a lot of pressure to me.

    Thanks again my friends...
     

    Tactically Fat

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    Nothing runs like a Trane!

    All jokes aside - I know it wasn't the part's fault that the part broke. :-(

    Our system is 8-9 years old now. And from what I keep reading here on INGO, the usability in "new" systems just isn't what it used to be. Here's to hoping I can get another 8-9 years out of mine!
     

    tsm

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    Looks like you need to document everything that’s gone on and file suit against the company which overcharged the unit. Sounds like they’re trying to stonewall by not providing requested data to Trane.
     

    jkaetz

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    Such a sad state of affairs that homeowners have to become HVAC apprentices to make sure that systems are properly cared for and serviced. Here's to hoping the company that did the shoddy work makes it right but i'd be prepared for a fight.
     

    CHCRandy

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    Thanks guys. The company is now in contact with Trane trying to get a new unit and they will install at no charge. Sounds like HVAC company is trying to get Trane to provide the unit and the HVAC company provide labor. We shall see. Sure appreciate every ones advice.
     

    Hoosierkav

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    Sounds like my ongoing drama.

    Had the compressor replaced last year. Within a day, I called them back because I was hearing a horrible thunking sound. They came back out and said that the system might have to be torn apart and that it's cheaper to replace X, Y, and Z rather than blah blah blah. They also installed a drier that hadn't been installed when the house was built (15 years ago). They also said that our thermostat was bad and gave me one for free. I said thanks, let me sleep on it. I called another company and they found that they had over-charged the system, cramming in 12# into a 6# system. For the past year, if it drops below freezing, the system struggles to heat the house above 64 without kicking in emergency heat... I think we're at the point of switching to a gas system and being done with the whole debacle.
     

    ChristianPatriot

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    Sounds like my ongoing drama.

    Had the compressor replaced last year. Within a day, I called them back because I was hearing a horrible thunking sound. They came back out and said that the system might have to be torn apart and that it's cheaper to replace X, Y, and Z rather than blah blah blah. They also installed a drier that hadn't been installed when the house was built (15 years ago). They also said that our thermostat was bad and gave me one for free. I said thanks, let me sleep on it. I called another company and they found that they had over-charged the system, cramming in 12# into a 6# system. For the past year, if it drops below freezing, the system struggles to heat the house above 64 without kicking in emergency heat... I think we're at the point of switching to a gas system and being done with the whole debacle.

    Heat pumps are pretty much useless below 35-ish. That’s universally true even for the new stuff. Natural gas is the best option if it’s available.
     

    churchmouse

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    Sounds like my ongoing drama.

    Had the compressor replaced last year. Within a day, I called them back because I was hearing a horrible thunking sound. They came back out and said that the system might have to be torn apart and that it's cheaper to replace X, Y, and Z rather than blah blah blah. They also installed a drier that hadn't been installed when the house was built (15 years ago). They also said that our thermostat was bad and gave me one for free. I said thanks, let me sleep on it. I called another company and they found that they had over-charged the system, cramming in 12# into a 6# system. For the past year, if it drops below freezing, the system struggles to heat the house above 64 without kicking in emergency heat... I think we're at the point of switching to a gas system and being done with the whole debacle.

    You are experiencing the heat pump nightmare. At freezing it is more of an anchor than a sail unless it is properly sized.
    We put one in last year before the cold snap. The heat banks would not run due to a wiring harness snafu from the factory. Customer called me when it was pretty cold out and said it did fine right to 28* and then stared loosing ground. That is about right.


    HEAT PUMPS SUCK in this region. If you have gas available do it.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    Heat pumps are pretty much useless below 35-ish. That’s universally true even for the new stuff. Natural gas is the best option if it’s available.


    Negative Ghost Rider.

    The new one Churchmouse installed for us works swimmingly down to about -5. Emergency heat pretty much only kicks while it de-ices the outdoor unit. (sad face because I really like the feel of strip heat)

    my old unit though... I'd agree with you. But it was is baaaaaaad shape and not working
     

    churchmouse

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    Negative Ghost Rider.

    The new one Churchmouse installed for us works swimmingly down to about -5. Emergency heat pretty much only kicks while it de-ices the outdoor unit. (sad face because I really like the feel of strip heat)

    my old unit though... I'd agree with you. But it was is baaaaaaad shape and not working

    Yours was properly sized...…..:cool:

    Most are at least 6,000 BTU's to small. Half ton capacity 12,000 being 1 ton. I can not explain how they came up with the tonnage comparison the British Thermal Units but I am sure one of our studious HVAC techs knows the answer.
     

    CHCRandy

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    Can you put too big of a heat pump in? Is that why everyone don't just buy the biggest unit? My daughters house is a 2 story house built in 1999......probably 3000 Square feet or so living area, if I had to guess. It is a Davis home.
     

    ChristianPatriot

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    Yours was properly sized...…..:cool:

    Most are at least 6,000 BTU's to small. Half ton capacity 12,000 being 1 ton. I can not explain how they came up with the tonnage comparison the British Thermal Units but I am sure one of our studious HVAC techs knows the answer.

    If memory serves, it’s pretty literal. Something like, it takes 12,000 btu to melt one ton of ice. Same way it takes 1 btu to raise 1lb of water 1 degree. We could never understand why they were called british thermal units when all of the other measurements were standard: pounds, tons, degrees in Fahrenheit. We called them ATU’s in our class. American Thermal Units. :patriot:
     

    ChristianPatriot

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    Can you put too big of a heat pump in? Is that why everyone don't just buy the biggest unit? My daughters house is a 2 story house built in 1999......probably 3000 Square feet or so living area, if I had to guess. It is a Davis home.

    Going way oversized can cause issues during the cooling season. The unit pulls the temp down so quickly that it doesn’t run long enough to get the moisture out of the air. Dehumidification being the other “comfort cooling” process that a/c units provide, not just the sensible temperature. You end up with a 72 degree swamp.
     

    ChristianPatriot

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    Negative Ghost Rider.

    The new one Churchmouse installed for us works swimmingly down to about -5. Emergency heat pretty much only kicks while it de-ices the outdoor unit. (sad face because I really like the feel of strip heat)

    my old unit though... I'd agree with you. But it was is baaaaaaad shape and not working

    Maybe I misspoke. Heat pumps can still maintain the house temp below freezing but they lose their efficiency because of the defrost cycles.
     
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