I have a question regarding Building Fire "Code"

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  • Libertarian01

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    I shop at Krogers in the evening. Something that bothered me tonight was trying to go out the most convenient door to my car and it was locked.

    However, right above the door is a sign that says, "These doors to remain unlocked while the building is occupied."

    My question is, does this have the force of any sort of code or law or is it just there from the door manufacturer? If it is a code or law violation I am going to throw a stink. If it doesn't I'll just eat it and move on.

    I get why they want to close them in the evening (shoplifting), but that doesn't give them a pass to violate code or law. A basic search and I don't know where to begin to look if this is law or just safety recommendation.

    Thanks,

    Doug
     

    schmart

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    I've seen numerous stores do that simply by turning off the motion sensors so the door doesn't automatically open. The door isn't locked and in case of a fire you COULD push it to the side manually. I can't say that is the case here though. If I were going to investigate, I'd start with someone I know on the fire department, or look up the fire marshal and ask them about a general case. (You've got my curiosity aroused, so I'll ask a friend in Illinois).
    --Rick
     

    femurphy77

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    All of the auto sliders we have are capable of breaking out on hinges in emergency. In all cases where codes exist it's up to the ahj on site at that moment that has the final say. Ahj being authority having jurisdiction. We've literally had situations where we were legal but the inspector there at that moment told us to change something. You can argue with him if you want but while he's standing there HE is right.

    We have a lot of locked emergency doors but they have a push to release feature and are placarded as such so it's legal in our case.
     

    Libertarian01

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    All of the auto sliders we have are capable of breaking out on hinges in emergency. In all cases where codes exist it's up to the ahj on site at that moment that has the final say. Ahj being authority having jurisdiction. We've literally had situations where we were legal but the inspector there at that moment told us to change something. You can argue with him if you want but while he's standing there HE is right.

    We have a lot of locked emergency doors but they have a push to release feature and are placarded as such so it's legal in our case.


    First, what is a "ahj?" Thanks.

    Second, I understand that most doors can be forced open in an emergency. But that is what I am talking about. On another side door to their floral area they actually blocked off intentionally with carts and turn the door off. In your case I also wouldn't think the door is technically "locked" because just by pushing on it you can easily walk out. They are designed for that. These doors are not.

    I get what you're saying but I'm not peeved about what I can force the door to do in an emergency, the sign says "To remain unlocked when the building is occupied." Period. To me the intentional blocking of an exit might well violate another fire code for ease of escape.

    To be honest I just got a burr up my butt about having to walk farther in the rain than I wanted to once before and now I had to do it again. If they are violating the law I want to know exactly what the law is, or code. You know what I mean.

    Like I said in the beginning, if this is just an advised guide I'll let it go, but if it is real code or law then I am going to call them on it.

    Regards,

    Doug
     

    femurphy77

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    All of the auto sliders we have are capable of breaking out on hinges in emergency. In all cases where codes exist it's up to the ahj on site at that moment that has the final say. Ahj being authority having jurisdiction. We've literally had situations where we were legal but the inspector there at that moment told us to change something. You can argue with him if you want but while he's standing there HE is right.

    We have a lot of locked emergency doors but they have a push to release feature and are placarded as such so it's legal in our case.

    .
     

    Hoosierdood

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    Are you seriously going to make a stink about a friggin door at Kroger that didn't open for you? This is how petty you want to be?


    I'll admit, I'm not 100% fluent in today's lingo, but I feel that this would warrant the response of "OK Boomer".
     

    Libertarian01

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    Are you seriously going to make a stink about a friggin door at Kroger that didn't open for you? This is how petty you want to be?


    I'll admit, I'm not 100% fluent in today's lingo, but I feel that this would warrant the response of "OK Boomer".


    It's petty yes, to a point. Freely admitted. I believe I even said so several posts up.

    However, that does not make it right for a company to ignore rules it has agreed to follow. When a business license is applied for the State tells them there will be all of these rules to follow. They agree to follow them. Don't want to follow them? Great! Lobby for changes. Or don't go into business. Free country in that regard.

    But when they knowingly agree to follow fire codes they need to follow them or face the natural consequence - in this case me getting annoyed that they are breaking the rule.

    Am I entirely rational on this? Maybe... Maybe not... Heck, even probably not.

    All I am asking for is where to find the rules so I know what I am talking. I am seeking guidance on where to look to turn my ignorance into enlightenment.

    Regards,

    Doug
     

    femurphy77

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    Well you've stated fire code so maybe um I don't know. . . . . The state fire Marshalls office? I am laughing at the irony here though; it seems that you're biggest concern is that they've ignored the sign, how do you feel about "no gun signs"?


    (Yeah I know bUT it's like a train wreck I have to look)
     

    Ricnzak

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    Call the fire marshal. They rule the roost. Rights of egress are very clear. If I have time later (family day), I will look up some of the codes later.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    The guy with "libertarian" in his user name is upset someone isn't following the government's regulations on how many doors must be accessible and wants to know which governmental agency to wield against the offender?

    Interesting.

    Based on a quick Google: Code Enforcement - Fort Wayne Fire Department is the department and jim.murua@cityoffortwayne.org (Assistant Chief, Prevention Fire Marshal) is the overreaching government bureaucrat you'll turn to in order to wield the full authority of the government against those who've elected to not follow the rules you believe they should be.
     

    Gary119

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    I'm at odds here. All assumptions on my part, but it seems to me that a FIRE door being locked or blocked MIGHT be something that needs to be reported. Image if one of your loved ones happened to be in that building during a fire and tried to use that locked/blocked door to get out and perished for NOT being able to reach safety because of the door being locked/blocked. I see the "in emergency" sign but i also see a sign holder blocking a safe exit. If it was just a inconvenience I wouldn't say anything but a safety factor is another thing. I don't know if any rules or laws have been broken so maybe talk to the manager about your concerns first then go from there.
     
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    femurphy77

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    I'm at odds here. All assumptions on my part, but it seems to me that a FIRE door being locked or blocked MIGHT be something that needs to be reported. Image if one of your loved ones happened to be in that building during a fire and tried to use that locked/blocked door to get out and perished for NOT being able to reach safety because of the door being locked/blocked. I see the "in emergency" sign but i also see a sign holder blocking a safe exit. If it was just a inconvenience I wouldn't say anything but a safety factor is another thing. I don't know if any rules or laws have been broken so maybe talk to the manager about your concerns first then go from there.

    You've made valid points but at this time the only thing we know for sure is the OP wanted to shortcut to his car so he wouldn't get as wet walking out. His door of choice had a sign that said must be unlocked during business hours. Too much missing info to judge the validity of the sign, whether it's a required exit, etc., etc., etc. It's quite possible that it ISN'T an emergency exit but a convenience exit. I KNOW that fire code has very specific regs concerning doors with an "EXIT" sign above it. If there is no "EXIT" sign above the stated door then sorry, not regulatory requirements.

    Now the insurance company for the property could say otherwise, the health department could have a different opinion, the building inspector could have a different opinion, the state fire marshal could have a different opinion, the local fire marshal could have a different opinion, yada, yada, yada. I deal with these people EVERY day. You build and follow the strictest interpretation of the codes and ask their opinions while doing so and then after the next election you ask their opinions again.

    As stated above though, I do love the irony as pointed out BBI!
     

    Hoosierdood

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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to BehindBlueI's again


    The guy with "libertarian" in his user name is upset someone isn't following the government's regulations on how many doors must be accessible and wants to know which governmental agency to wield against the offender?

    Interesting.
     
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