Another Economic Lesson On "Gouging"...

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  • Ingomike

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    Walter Williams is a professor of economics at George Mason University. He has an excellent article on the principles of economics in tough situations.

    But let's agree that COVID-19 is a disaster and ask what the appropriate steps are to deal with it. One of the first observations about any disaster is that the quantity demanded of many goods greatly exceeds the supply. There is a shortage. The natural market response when there is a shortage is for prices to rise. Rising prices produce several beneficial effects. They reduce the incentive for people to hoard while suppliers, motivated by the prospect of higher profits, are incentivized to produce more of the good in short supply.


    But what about hoarding? Often hoarding creates the shortage. In uncertain times, people may purchase three dozen eggs instead of one dozen. They may want to maintain stockpiles of canned goods and buy up large quantities of cleaners, paper towels and toilet paper. This kind of behavior has left some with overflowing freezers, shelves of sanitizers and garages full of toilet paper while their neighbors are left either wanting for the same items or paying what some call "excessive and unjustified" prices.

    While it's difficult to get beyond emotions, the fact is that consumers are not forced to buy products for the higher (gouged) price. If they pay, it is likely because they see themselves as being better off acquiring the good than the alternative - keeping their money in their pocket. Higher prices charged have a couple of unappreciated benefits. First, they get people to economize on the use of the good whose price has risen. That is higher prices reduce demand and encourage conservation. That helps with the disaster.

    Some people might reluctantly agree that allowing prices to rise during a disaster helps allocate resources. But they'll complain that's not the intention of greedy sellers who are out to profit. I say, so what? It's not sellers' intentions that count but what their actions accomplish that's important -- namely, getting people to conserve more and suppliers to produce more.

    Many of the problems associated with a disaster would be eliminated if people's buying behavior were the same as it was before the disaster. To get people to behave nicely and consider their neighbors is the ultimate challenge. I think rising prices are the best and most dependable way to get people to be considerate of their fellow man.

    https://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2020/04/01/managing-a-disaster-n2565998

    If you really want to learn more search for more of his work and that of Thomas Sowell, they taught me I was wrong back during 9/11/01 when I was very hard on anyone I perceived as gouging. Many of those of us sheepdog types feel that way. We really care deeply for those that we believe are being gouged, even if we are not the ones directly affected. But I have come to understand through research and study that I was wrong then.

    Many that despise so called gouging zealous guard their personal stores but those that failed to get what they needed when plentiful need this market response to have at least the minimum they need to serve their families.

    I use a product regularly that I thought today I should bolster my stocks of, I checked today and my $5 per pack was $25 now. I wasn't upset, and did not buy extra as I will manage my stock to get through this. To those that didn't stock up that may be the difference to them. That market change changed my behavior, I told the family that we needed to conserve our stocks. That is exactly what needed to happen. It was the best for all!

    This is is not to excuse bad behavior like stealing masks from hospitals, buying all the sanitizer a week before expecting to profit greatly. This is about the raising the price of properly held inventory in response to increased demand

    So please rethink this, look at the evidence and look at how folks are affected and not just at the price but by unavailability. Those we look down our nose because they didn't heed our warnings to prepare need the stuff badly, bad enough to pay those that have it a big premium because they failed to prepare.

    We we sheepdogs need to understand how this works so we can guide those that did not prepare as we advised. One last story I got a call from my brother, I love dearly, 2 weeks ago wanting me to sell some of my stores. I said no. I was able to help him get what he needed, albeit at today's market value, not my pre planning prices. He has what he needs and feels better about his situation but hopefully learned a lesson to prepare better in the future and what the cost is of not doing so. It is a tough lesson for both of us, but like a parent giving dicipline if I bailed him out now what would be gained. I obviously would have helped him if absolutely necessary but it was not. He knows now.

    I hope we all can learn from this situation...
     

    Ark

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    It's awful easy to preach about the virtues of jacked up prices when you didn't pay anywhere near that much for it yourself and that extra difference is all free and clear profit for you.

    Over-buying can just as easily be solved by purchase limits. Don't let people walk out the door with five years worth of toilet paper and there wouldn't be a shortage. This is a valid argument when you're talking about controlling the crowds of people storming the store for the new iPhone, but it's a different matter when you're gouging basic staples that people depend on in their daily lives.
     

    Ingomike

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    It's awful easy to preach about the virtues of jacked up prices when you didn't pay anywhere near that much for it yourself and that extra difference is all free and clear profit for you.

    Over-buying can just as easily be solved by purchase limits. Don't let people walk out the door with five years worth of toilet paper and there wouldn't be a shortage. This is a valid argument when you're talking about controlling the crowds of people storming the store for the new iPhone, but it's a different matter when you're gouging basic staples that people depend on in their daily lives.

    It is just not true that "limits" limit any of those determined to beat the limits. It can be made more difficult but will not stop the people that have the whole family go through the line with separate sales. Limits are just a feel good attempt that only those willing to participate will honor. I hit a limit recently online and circumvented it by shipping it to the office. Markets work! Why deny it with easily defeated rules simple hourly employees cannot stop?

    Last question, are you open mindedly looking at this or just reflexively responding?
     
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    hoosierdoc

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    there would never be a gas station without fuel if the price raised as the supply dropped. It may get to $10k/gallon but I suspect there would always be fuel in the tank.
     

    tsm

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    One of the Scandinavian countries (Denmark maybe?) instituted a pricing system recently on hand sanitizer that seemed like a smart way to limit hoarding. You could buy all the sanitizer you wanted, but the catch was the first item was at the normal price of $5.95 while all subsequent purchases were priced at our equivalent of $143. The article didn’t explain how they handled purchases at multiple locations and different times to catch cheating, but if you could solve those, that approach could be very effective.
     

    drillsgt

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    It is just not true that "limits" limit any of those determined to beat the limits. It can be made more difficult but will not stop the people that have the whole family go through the line with separate sales. Limits are just a feel good attempt that only those willing to participate will honor. I hit a limit recently online and circumvented it by shipping it to the office. Markets work! Why deny it with easily defeated rules simple hourly employees cannot stop?

    Last question, are you open mindedly looking at this or just reflexively responding?

    The new Peach Crown just came back this year and purchase was limited to one per customer so my wife and I had to buy one separately.
     

    churchmouse

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    You will never stop a carpet bagger. If they smell profit to be made quickly they jump at the chance. They just think differently than I do. It will happen during every crisis/disaster. There will be those folks that will respond solely for profit. Is this taking advantage of people.....depends on which side of the situation you are on.
    But this will always be with us.
     

    femurphy77

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    The current pandemic has afforded us an excellent opportunity to see what exactly we are made of. Dare I say out loud on a public forum that the future of man kind is bleak. Instead of rising to the occasion we have chosen to fall back on our inherent nature. If something as simple as the flu (yeah go ahead, tear me a new one for over simplifying) has caused the response we're currently seeing then we as a race are truly ****ed when "the big one" truly hits.

    The only silver lining I see in this is that once we are out of the way nature will quickly fill the void and forget we ever existed.
     

    churchmouse

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    The current pandemic has afforded us an excellent opportunity to see what exactly we are made of. Dare I say out loud on a public forum that the future of man kind is bleak. Instead of rising to the occasion we have chosen to fall back on our inherent nature. If something as simple as the flu (yeah go ahead, tear me a new one for over simplifying) has caused the response we're currently seeing then we as a race are truly ****ed when "the big one" truly hits.

    The only silver lining I see in this is that once we are out of the way nature will quickly fill the void and forget we ever existed.

    So much truth here.

    This is only a dress rehearsal for things to come.
     

    Thor

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    Any concept of how things should be that does not take into account basic human nature (in fact nature's nature) is a fiction. It is why socialism/communism always fail in the end, they are a fantasy about a world that can only exist with people that do not in reality exist anywhere.

    We may have layered a sheen of community and technology over our savagery, but remove that and it's back the the nature of the beast.
     

    femurphy77

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    Any concept of how things should be that does not take into account basic human nature (in fact nature's nature) is a fiction. It is why socialism/communism always fail in the end, they are a fantasy about a world that can only exist with people that do not in reality exist anywhere.

    We may have layered a sheen of community and technology over our savagery, but remove that and it's back the the nature of the beast.


    :yesway:
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    there would never be a gas station without fuel ...It may get to $10k/gallon

    Isn't that functionally the same? Is the goal to have some of the resource, just have it unobtainable?

    It is just not true that "limits" limit any of those determined to beat the limits. It can be made more difficult....

    Sounds like gun safe arguments. Might as well leave your guns laying on the front lawn as opposed to in a gun safe. Anyone who's really dedicated will get them anyway, so no need to take 99% solutions since 100% solutions don't exist.

    Some of you may want to read a history of the Dust Bowl and the boom/bust cycles for exactly what you're advocating as the answer.
     

    Ingomike

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    Isn't that functionally the same? Is the goal to have some of the resource, just have it unobtainable?



    Sounds like gun safe arguments. Might as well leave your guns laying on the front lawn as opposed to in a gun safe. Anyone who's really dedicated will get them anyway, so no need to take 99% solutions since 100% solutions don't exist.

    Some of you may want to read a history of the Dust Bowl and the boom/bust cycles for exactly what you're advocating as the answer.


    The goal is to allocate a scarce resource and if available at a high price beats no availability and generally no availability means it is available on the black/gray market at even worse terms.

    The safe analogy makes no correlation to me.

    The black market will always exist and resources values will always rise and fall, no gouging law will Chang that.
     

    Ingomike

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    The current pandemic has afforded us an excellent opportunity to see what exactly we are made of. Dare I say out loud on a public forum that the future of man kind is bleak. Instead of rising to the occasion we have chosen to fall back on our inherent nature. If something as simple as the flu (yeah go ahead, tear me a new one for over simplifying) has caused the response we're currently seeing then we as a race are truly ****ed when "the big one" truly hits.

    The only silver lining I see in this is that once we are out of the way nature will quickly fill the void and forget we ever existed.

    Any concept of how things should be that does not take into account basic human nature (in fact nature's nature) is a fiction. It is why socialism/communism always fail in the end, they are a fantasy about a world that can only exist with people that do not in reality exist anywhere.

    We may have layered a sheen of community and technology over our savagery, but remove that and it's back the the nature of the beast.


    This!!! Human nature never changes no matter how pretty we dress ourselves up, some will hope to prey on the weak. Gouging laws go against human nature whereas the economics of retailers increasing prices naturally restrains it. No gouging law will ever change the value of a product, that cannot be changed by any human as need defines the value, government can only define a law of what you are allowed to do.
     

    jkaetz

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    You will never stop a carpet bagger. If they smell profit to be made quickly they jump at the chance. They just think differently than I do. It will happen during every crisis/disaster. There will be those folks that will respond solely for profit. Is this taking advantage of people.....depends on which side of the situation you are on.
    But this will always be with us.
    I don't believe the OP or Sowell were talking about the lowlifes that purposely try to create a shortage with the intent to resell at a higher price. They are likely speaking of front line vendors raising prices for the initial sale to deter/prevent the bottom feeders from taking all their inventory to begin with. Those who then NEEDED to buy a few rolls of TP or a dozen eggs could still walk into a store and do so.


    Any concept of how things should be that does not take into account basic human nature (in fact nature's nature) is a fiction. It is why socialism/communism always fail in the end, they are a fantasy about a world that can only exist with people that do not in reality exist anywhere.

    We may have layered a sheen of community and technology over our savagery, but remove that and it's back the the nature of the beast.

    Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes.

    The above quote is still quite accurate when applied to our society.
     

    hoosierdoc

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    You will never stop a carpet bagger. If they smell profit to be made quickly they jump at the chance. They just think differently than I do. It will happen during every crisis/disaster. There will be those folks that will respond solely for profit. Is this taking advantage of people.....depends on which side of the situation you are on.
    But this will always be with us.

    there was a hurricane in FL one year. as there always seems to be. two guys had bought an entire semi-trailer load of generators and waited. storm hit, they drove down and were selling them for cash and twice the usual rate. selling like hot cakes because no one else had any.

    police came and shut them down for gouging law violation. now no one had generators. it's beyond stupid.

    but we cheer and celebrate the lineman going in to restore power at 3X rate or more. they price gouge the crap out of .gov and are celebrated for it. stupidity.

    it's illegal to upcharge during time of short supply but NOT to refuse to supply yourself during time of surplus. we have mandated short sightedness
     

    AtTheMurph

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    Isn't that functionally the same? Is the goal to have some of the resource, just have it unobtainable?



    Sounds like gun safe arguments. Might as well leave your guns laying on the front lawn as opposed to in a gun safe. Anyone who's really dedicated will get them anyway, so no need to take 99% solutions since 100% solutions don't exist.

    Some of you may want to read a history of the Dust Bowl and the boom/bust cycles for exactly what you're advocating as the answer.


    It is not functionally the same. In the free market where price is the meeting point between supply and demand for someone in the example ($10,000/gal) that price is worth it. If it is not worth it to you that doesn't matter.

    Supply/demand allocates resources efficiently because the decision makers have skin in the game.

    I have read about the dust bowl and the causes and effects. I have read about the centralized planning and the spin to make it seem that government action saved us during the depression. I also have a BS degree in Economics (concentration is Soviet and Transportation econ) and have worked in the financial field for over 30 years.

    Your arguments to me seem half-reasoned.
     

    AtTheMurph

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    there was a hurricane in FL one year. as there always seems to be. two guys had bought an entire semi-trailer load of generators and waited. storm hit, they drove down and were selling them for cash and twice the usual rate. selling like hot cakes because no one else had any.

    police came and shut them down for gouging law violation. now no one had generators. it's beyond stupid.

    but we cheer and celebrate the lineman going in to restore power at 3X rate or more. they price gouge the crap out of .gov and are celebrated for it. stupidity.

    it's illegal to upcharge during time of short supply but NOT to refuse to supply yourself during time of surplus. we have mandated short sightedness

    "Gouging" allocates resources to where they are most valuable. That's what the crybabies don't understand. If generators are worth more to a hurricane damaged home owner or contractor in FL than it is in central Indiana then shouldn't the FL contractor be able to buy one at whatever price he decides is worth it to him?

    If we need more generators in FL after Irma (and my house got nailed in ground zero) raising the price paid in that area is the every best way to mobilize the suppliers to be damn sure to get generators there ASAP.

    Expecting the government to go find generators, procure them, ship them, find those who need them, check their qualifications to purchase, and then distribute them at a certain price is a guaranteed way to slow recovery down.

    And the black market will simply seek to supply the same things more quickly.

    The argument about leaving guns on the lawn sound to me like the argument to make murder illegal to stop murders or that making pot illegal will stop it's use.

    Supply will always fill demand especially if there is a profit to be made. Pot is very profitable. It's a weed that grows about anywhere. Generators after a hurricane are very profitable if you can transport them to where they are needed.

    Why would gov want to stop the allocation of resources to places they are needed? Because it is good marketing for them because everyone hates "price gougers", "hoarders", "profiteers", and the "bourgeoisie". These same terms have been used for generations by the same people to stoke anger and seek retaliation through the power of government. And they are almost always used by the same totalitarians as a pretext for gov assuming more power over us.
     

    HoughMade

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    One of the Scandinavian countries (Denmark maybe?) instituted a pricing system recently on hand sanitizer that seemed like a smart way to limit hoarding. You could buy all the sanitizer you wanted, but the catch was the first item was at the normal price of $5.95 while all subsequent purchases were priced at our equivalent of $143. The article didn’t explain how they handled purchases at multiple locations and different times to catch cheating, but if you could solve those, that approach could be very effective.

    That would just mean you send everyone in the house to the store for sanitizer separately, thereby exposing more people. Hoarders gonna hoard, but I suspect that in Denmark, a lot of people think more of others than the WalMart crowd here.
     
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