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  • Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Aug 23, 2009
    1,822
    113
    Brainardland
    No good deed goes unpunished, as the old saying goes.

    Here’s how things went down:

    I looked out my back window and saw that one of my neighbor’s dogs had gotten out of the fence around the yard. He has two of them, brothers, and they act decidedly unfriendly toward walkers and joggers passing by the house. I've never seen them outside that fence since they were pups and had no real way of knowing how dangerous they might be at large on the street. My subdivision tends toward retirees with a lot of people walking powder-puff class dogs, and I knew that an encounter between my neighbor’s dog and one of them could mean trouble. It was also just about time for school buses to start showing up and I was concerned about small children walking into the neighboring suburb. In addition, despite his taste in mutts my neighbor really is a good guy to have living next door, and I didn’t want one of his dogs hit on the busy road nearby.

    I went outside. Before doing so I slipped my S&W Model 1950 .45 in my back pocket. Be prepared, as Teddy Roosevelt used to say. The dog was aggressive but not quite brave enough to come after me. I tried coaxing him back into the area of the fence that he’d bent out and escaped from. No dice. I tried luring him into my garage. Did no good with that either. We were back at the corner of his property when his brother noticed the spot in the fence and wormed out…great. Now they were BOTH at large. The wife was frantically trying to make telephone contact with the owner, who was not at home.

    The two dogs spied one of my neighbors, an elderly lady, walking her squirrel-sized dog and went for her. I managed, with yelling and hell-raising, to divert them and prevent them attacking the terrified woman.

    They kept wandering around the immediate area but would return to their property when I called them. I was making one more attempt to entice them back through the damaged part of the fence when it happened.

    I don’t know whether the first dog finally got his courage up or he was emboldened by the presence of his brother, but the first dog attacked me. He got me by the left leg. I pulled free and he got me again. The other dog moved in. Both dogs are large and powerful and I could NOT take the chance on letting them get me down on the ground.

    I pulled the Smith and fired a shot into the ground off to my right. Both mutts vamoosed like I’d doused them with boiling water.
    Then, like the idiot like I am, I called Carmel PD and reported it. I should have known better.

    A Carmel patrol officer showed up along with Animal Control. The mutts had gotten enough excitement for one day and had re-entered their yard while I was making the 911 call. I quickly jury-rigged a repair to the fence to prevent another escape. The Animal Control guy left the scene.

    I introduced myself to the officer by means of my badge and my LTCH. I explained the whole story to him. He then told me that he was charging me with discharging my firearm in the city.

    Having been in municipal law enforcement my whole adult life I’m aware that all municipalities have ordinances that prohibit discharge of firearms within corporation limits. I’m also aware that they all necessarily have exceptions for things like self-defense. I pointed this out to the young officer.

    His rationale was that since I didn’t actually kill my neighbor’s dog, I wasn’t really in any danger, and therefore wasn’t acting in self-defense, and for me to fire a round into the ground instead of shooting the dog was reckless. I somehow managed to stand patiently and listen as this guy, who was still messing his pants when I was running a beat in Cincinnati’s ghettos, lectured me on gun safety.

    This is the text of Carmel’s municipal ordinance:

    § 6-65 Use of Weapons Prohibited.
    (a) It is declared to be unlawful for any person, with or without malice, purposely and deliberately to point, aim or fire a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, firearm or any other dangerous or deadly weapon within the corporate limits or within the established boundaries of the City.
    (Ord. D-292, § 1, 3-16-81)
    (b) Any person who violates any provision of this section shall be fined not less than $10 nor more than $500 for each offense, in addition to which the weapon may be ordered confiscated.
    (Ord. D-292, § 2, 3-16-81)
    (c) This section shall not affect the use of weapons which have legally been approved for such use in areas or as otherwise approved by the Metropolitan Police Department of the City nor shall such prohibit the reasonable use of weapons in the protection of human life or property, including the protection of livestock or farm animals in an Agricultural District.

    The italics are mine.

    It appears to me that any reasonably intelligent person can immediately see that I was:

    1) Protecting human life, not only my own, but that of my neighbors, one of whom I had already protected, and;

    2) Protecting property, namely my neighbor’s dog. I was certain that a warning shot would break off the attack and I sure as hell didn’t want to be in the position of shooting and killing my neighbor’s mutt, even if he is a mean little sucker.

    According to the officer, I should have simply stayed in the house. If I saw the dogs attacking an elderly neighbor or a child, I should have stayed out of it.

    I don’t have the words to express the disgust I feel at how my noble profession has been turned to crap by politically correct anti-gun brainwashing. I don't blame this young copper for this...he doesn't know any better. He's been taught that gunowners are nothing but cop-killers in training, and when a citizen actually USES a gun, even in a situation like this where it was clearly called for, he can't help taking an attitude. In my day any officer, whether he was 21 or 61, would have seen the wisdom of firing a shot harmlessly into the ground as preferable to actually killing a neighbor’s domestic pet when the warning shot would avert that necessity.

    My neighbor, stand-up guy that he is, has offered to pay any fine that I receive (a possible $500).

    The moral of the story is, NEVER involve the government in ANYTHING. Absolutely NOTHING can be gained by it, and any situation is going to be made worse. Don’t help your neighbors, even if they’re elderly, young or helpless. Don’t get involved. Don’t do anything.

    I have a court date in November. I’ll be pleading not guilty.

    And you know what? Stupid son-of-a-***** that I am, if this happens tomorrow I’ll do exactly what I did today. I won’t be worn down or compromise my principles because of the degeneration of our government, at all levels, into a tyrannical circus.
     

    4sarge

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Mar 19, 2008
    5,894
    99
    FREEDONIA
    You are correct, "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished", and "Common Sense isn't so Common". I'd try to find a supervisor on the PD, older & wiser. I'd suggest the HC Prosecutor but I know that you'd strike out there. Maybe someone here knows of an attorney who has input into the system there.

    Good Luck :patriot:
     

    esrice

    Certified Regular Guy
    Rating - 100%
    20   0   0
    Jan 16, 2008
    24,095
    48
    Indy
    This reminds me of the "warning shot" mess that some folks get into. Legally its a real slippery slope. Honestly I can see it from both sides.

    I hope that everything works out for you in November. Be sure to post an update!
     

    Vince49

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 13, 2010
    2,174
    38
    Indy urban west.
    Lower standards and inept management.

    My brother in law recently retired from IMPD after thirty one years of service. He did not really want to retire yet as he is only fifty six but said that he could no longer tolerate the the lack of common sense, discourtesy and just plain stupidity he was seeing from too many of the new officers. :rolleyes:
     

    4sarge

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Mar 19, 2008
    5,894
    99
    FREEDONIA
    Liberty, I do know one person there who (if not retired) is a ranking officer. PM me if interested and I'll provide the contact info but I imagine time is of the essence :patriot:
     

    Frank_N_Stein

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    79   0   0
    Nov 24, 2008
    10,206
    77
    Beech Grove, IN
    My brother in law recently retired from IMPD after thirty one years of service. He did not really want to retire yet as he is only fifty six but said that he could no longer tolerate the the lack of common sense, discourtesy and just plain stupidity he was seeing from too many of the new officers. :rolleyes:

    That seems to be a common trait of officers graduating from the last 2 or 3 academy classes. It must be bad since I've only got 8 years on IMPD and I notice it.
     

    indykid

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Jan 27, 2008
    11,859
    113
    Westfield
    How dare you call a Carmel uniformed-civilian away from his speed trap!!!

    So the cop told you you should have killed the dog instead of firing a well placed, level headed warning shot???

    Yes, time to call the chief and find out that what you were told is what they prefer in Carmel, that it was ok for the dog to attack an elderly lady, possibly killing her!!! Did the cop really want you to take the New York City way out and ignore the possibility?

    It is enough to make me sick to know that Carmel PD is purely for tax collection and not protecting the public.
     

    Pocketman

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 11, 2010
    1,704
    36
    According to the officer, I should have simply stayed in the house. If I saw the dogs attacking an elderly neighbor or a child, I should have stayed out of it.

    What the heck kind of advice is that?!?

    Probably should have told the young whippersnapper: "I was being attacked and harmed, so I shot at the dog to protect myself. Since I am old and not as sharp as I once was, I missed"

    As others have suggested, you may be well served to talk to the chief, or at least a shift supervisor. Will be interesting to see what the judge makes of this, if it goes that far. Your experience really saddens me, Liberty.

    Welcome to Carmel.
     

    SirRealism

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 17, 2008
    1,779
    38
    Wow, this is simply amazing. This is what you get for answering truthfully? It's a shame that lying (saying that you shot at the dogs and missed) would have been the better option.

    I can only hope that a prosecutor or judge would see the plain fact that you were protecting yourself.

    I hope everything turns out OK for you, LS.
     

    ATF Consumer

    Shooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Sep 23, 2008
    4,628
    36
    South Side Indy
    That seems to be a common trait of officers graduating from the last 2 or 3 academy classes. It must be bad since I've only got 8 years on IMPD and I notice it.

    Has the requirements (standards) been lowered to attract more officers? If not, then it must be that the quality of high school education has dropped over the past 30 years.
     

    Expat

    Pdub
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    23   0   0
    Feb 27, 2010
    108,736
    113
    Michiana
    If not, then it must be that the quality of high school education has dropped over the past 30 years.

    I don't think there is much doubt about this part. I know Human Resources have been instructing us managers that the young folks have to be managed differently than older ones. They need constant approval like their mommy gave them. They still need to get that unearned trophy or they get butthurt.
     

    snapping turtle

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    6   0   0
    Dec 5, 2009
    6,463
    113
    Madison county
    #1 Never call anyone if you don't need to: Do it yourself.

    #2: Move out of carmel Indiana.

    #3: Call the top dog at the Carmel police or better yet have your lawyer call him.

    #4: get in touch with the NRA if you are a member and have them call Carmel's top dog or the county sheriff, At least he is voted into office.

    #5: hope it does not revoke your rights to carry,

    #4:
     

    Denny347

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    13,417
    149
    Napganistan
    Has the requirements (standards) been lowered to attract more officers? If not, then it must be that the quality of high school education has dropped over the past 30 years.
    The requirements have not been lowered but background checks get put aside. We had a recruit that had a suspended drivers license with like 24 pts or something. He was told that was ok but he had to get it back before EVOC. He was driven to and from the academy until then :n00b:. It is damn hard to find good recruits. We do get some but the rest are mediocre at best. Borderline criminals at worst. Similar to politicians, the really good candidates avoid getting into this line of work like the plague. Private sector has better hours, better insurance, better pay, and not likely to get sued or have your face plastered on the evening news. Police work is getting harder and harder. You would be amazed at the number of applicants that have been arrested with open warrants when they show up to take the written test.
     

    4sarge

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Mar 19, 2008
    5,894
    99
    FREEDONIA
    The requirements have not been lowered but background checks get put aside. We had a recruit that had a suspended drivers license with like 24 pts or something. He was told that was ok but he had to get it back before EVOC. He was driven to and from the academy until then :n00b:. It is damn hard to find good recruits. We do get some but the rest are mediocre at best. Borderline criminals at worst. Similar to politicians, the really good candidates avoid getting into this line of work like the plague. Private sector has better hours, better insurance, better pay, and not likely to get sued or have your face plastered on the evening news. Police work is getting harder and harder. You would be amazed at the number of applicants that have been arrested with open warrants when they show up to take the written test.

    Really Sad, Things have CHANGED for the Worse :rolleyes:
     

    Jack Ryan

    Shooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 2, 2008
    5,864
    36
    Interesting story.

    I had one like it a little while back. Neighbor lady had a starving stray dog trapped up on her fenced in patio. It came in to eat her dogs food and she closed the gate on it. She didn't know what to do next. Full grown chocolate lab nearly starve and he was a bad one.

    I went over to help when she called, my story is a little different though. I took my gun but rather than take my gun as the first, last, and only choice I could think of to deal with it, I took a rope, a stick, a leash, a bat, a shovel, a piece of pipe. Turns out all I needed was a few feet of pipe and some rope and never fired my gun or even get it out of the truck but then that wasn't my first thought to do either.
     
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Aug 23, 2009
    1,822
    113
    Brainardland
    People outside of law enforcement have no idea how bad it is.

    Prior to my retirement from Cincinnati PD one of our polygraph operators told me that they were getting people in the recruit process who not only had felony convictions, but who were actively engaged in drug trafficking while they were in the process.

    Naturally the police department tried to wash them out. The CITY personnel section overruled them. They waived the felony convictions, for black recruits ONLY. They also made a ruling that white applicants who were involved with drugs were to be regarded as criminals and washed out, but that black applicants dealt drugs because whitey had kept them from getting GOOD jobs and therefore they dealt drugs out of economic necessity and weren't really criminals.

    As Dave Barry always says, I am NOT making this up. I wish to God I were.
     

    Eddie

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Nov 28, 2009
    3,730
    38
    North of Terre Haute
    Sounds like the OP needs to put the spin on this one. How about this:

    Carmel P.D. Advocates Killing Family Pets

    Carmel P.D. recently made the recommendation that family pets who wander outside of their owner's yards should be shot and killed. According to Officer __________ an armed citizen who encounters such a wandering pet and fails to kill it is being reckless and should be fined $500.
     
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