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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElsiePeaRN View Post
    You don't have to But thousands of American soldiers have done just that-- in places like Viet Nam, Korea, Europe, and now the Middle East. What do you think we are doing when we run around the world trying to forcefully spread democracy?



    I'm also not suggesting that natural rights are the same as legal rights. They have no legal right to be here, and they have no legal right to stay here. But they do have the natural right (and, I'm pretty sure the legal right as well) not to have their face stomped into the ground. According to the theory of moral forfeiture, when you start stomping, you forfeit your right not to be stomped right back.
    By your definition of moral forfeiture, if a police officer is shooting at a criminal, that gives the criminal the "right" to shoot back???

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by USMC_0311 View Post
    Man you have to come to terms with this inner anger you have. I know you and I don't think you would stand by and watch them get stomped. I have made mistakes before but I doubt I am wrong about this. I think you are mad at the government not the illegal aliens. Most just want the same things we want.

    Lets give all illegal aliens amensty on our terms.

    1 learn english
    2 learn the constitution/country history (mandatory appleseed)
    3 Get real SSN, job, pay taxes, vote and enjoy our way of life as allies.

    This will bring our contry back to the great republic it can be. If anyone believes in the same rights as I do I want them on my side.
    My idea of "amnesty" = go back voluntarily to the country you are a citizen of,stay there for a set time, then come to the border, fill out the required paperwork, enter on a temporary visa, get a job, pay taxes, and also pay a steep fine for entering illegally in the first place, then after a set time, with no additional criminal behavior, be able to " apply" to become a citizen.
    No free pass, they entered the country illegally, they are criminals, they should pay, just like any other criminal.
    I also believe that children born to illegals should not automatically be a citizen, but should have to go back with their parents!

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtebiker View Post
    By your definition of moral forfeiture, if a police officer is shooting at a criminal, that gives the criminal the "right" to shoot back???
    Never thought about this. But I would assume that if a LEO is shooting at a criminal, it is because he is committing an illegal act of aggression, so your question doesn't really apply. It is the criminal who forfeited his right not to be shot at. However, change the question - if some rogue evil LEO (we hear so much about these creatures here on INGO one would think they are on every street corner) starts for no reason shooting at you, a good guy just walking down the street, having not committed any acts of aggression or broken any laws, then yes. I believe you would have the right to defend yourself and I would think a jury of your peers would agree. (Edited to add-- I have to remind us both though that there is a difference between natural and legal rights. Moral forfeiture addresses natural rights, not legal ones.)

    And BTW-- It's not my definition. I'm not that smart
    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    ...99% of our laws should not exist. It does not take thousands upon thousands of pages to say "mind your own business and keep your hands to yourself".

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtebiker View Post
    My idea of "amnesty" = go back voluntarily to the country you are a citizen of,stay there for a set time, then come to the border, fill out the required paperwork, enter on a temporary visa, get a job, pay taxes, and also pay a steep fine for entering illegally in the first place, then after a set time, with no additional criminal behavior, be able to " apply" to become a citizen.
    No free pass, they entered the country illegally, they are criminals, they should pay, just like any other criminal.
    I also believe that children born to illegals should not automatically be a citizen, but should have to go back with their parents!
    Well good luck with that. I am just trying to be realistic, you know damn well we are not going to go round up all the illegals and kick them out. The logistics invloved alone makes any arguement for that a moot point. Just how do you propose to identify them so you can make them leave?
    You going to show your papers on command?
    "There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter"
    Ernest Hemingway

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjarrell View Post
    Terry, from CheckPoint USA ... [/snip]

    Good video, thanks for posting. I'd rep you, but I've been playing silly games in the rep thread.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by USMC_0311 View Post
    Well good luck with that. I am just trying to be realistic, you know damn well we are not going to go round up all the illegals and kick them out. The logistics invloved alone makes any arguement for that a moot point. Just how do you propose to identify them so you can make them leave?
    You going to show your papers on command?
    Go back and read my post. I said, " leave voluntarily".
    Don't go voluntarily, wait till you are arrested for something else or are found to be here illegally, then deportation with no chance to come back... Your choice!
    And I do show my papers...my drivers license and auto or m.c. Registration on command when I get stopped by the police. I think that identifies me to the officer doesn't it?
    If you cant produce a valid license and registration, then the officer should be allowed to find out who you are and if you are a citizen of this country.
    I do believe they should have a reason to pull you over.
    And I don't think it is hard to "round them up" ......when we start loading up busloads of illegals, give them a peanut butter sandwich, a bottle of water, and a ride to the other side of the border,and they can not re-enter(yes, it is very possible to build barriers and fences that can keep them out if we want to.) others would start to figure out that it's better to go voluntarily and be able to re-enter and be able to achieve the Mexican Dream. Those who don't, some of course may be able to fly under the radar and live here for the rest of their lives, some will commit crimes, be caught, serve out their sentence, then be deported,etc.......
    Last edited by Dirtebiker; 05-01-2011 at 17:59.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotdoger View Post
    Sure is!
    Sorry to hear that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hotdoger View Post
    Where do you draw the line?

    Armed invaders , unarmed?

    If they have Depends on or not?
    You honestly are trying to say that the people coming into this country illegally are an invading army?

    Dude, you need to get your medication adjusted for that paranoia you got goin' on.

    They are simply criminals.

    They aren't even bad criminals. The great majority of them are hard working people who just want to give their families a better life. Sure there are those who are REAL criminal's but you have those in any population.

    Even criminals have Rights in this country. It's a basic American value that MANY seem to forget or easily & willingly violate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtebiker View Post
    By your definition of moral forfeiture, if a police officer is shooting at a criminal, that gives the criminal the "right" to shoot back???
    No.

    The cop is responding to the prior unlawful act of the BG.

    If you hit me (without provocation, just to make it simple), you can't then use MY act of self-defense to further justify agressive action on your part.

    That legal theory is even specifically included in the self-defense laws right here in IN.

    It just doesn't work that way, but I suspect you already knew that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtebiker View Post
    I also believe that children born to illegals should not automatically be a citizen, but should have to go back with their parents!
    Using that as a determination of citizenship would have eliminated every single one of our Founders (& everyone else born before July 4, 1776) as being legal citizen's of the US.

    I think it's funny (in a kind of way) that you argue that Rights are "god-given" with j706 to protect those Rights for YOU but then try to deny those same "god-given" Rights to other people who aren't citizen's of the US because you don't like them being here.

    Are they "god-given" or not?

    "God" didn't just give them to YOU (US). "He" gave them to everybody, no matter where you were born or which river you crossed to get here.

  8. #138
    Master USMC_0311's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtebiker View Post
    Go back and read my post. I said, " leave voluntarily".
    Don't go voluntarily, wait till you are arrested for something else or are found to be here illegally, then deportation with no chance to come back... Your choice!
    And I do show my papers...my drivers license and auto or m.c. Registration on command when I get stopped by the police. I think that identifies me to the officer doesn't it?
    If you cant produce a valid license and registration, then the officer should be allowed to find out who you are and if you are a citizen of this country.
    I do believe they should have a reason to pull you over.
    And I don't think it is hard to "round them up" ......when we start loading up busloads of illegals, give them a peanut butter sandwich, a bottle of water, and a ride to the other side of the border,and they can not re-enter(yes, it is very possible to build barriers and fences that can keep them out if we want to.) others would start to figure out that it's better to go voluntarily and be able to re-enter and be able to achieve the Mexican Dream. Those who don't, some of course may be able to fly under the radar and live here for the rest of their lives, some will commit crimes, be caught, serve out their sentence, then be deported,etc.......
    What you propose is what we currently have. Ya that’s working out for us. What about the ones that don't drive? Your solution is to take back the ones that get caught. Then tighten the border so they can't comeback. Not all illegal aliens get here crossing the border. A lot are here from overstaying there legal visa. Do you know how many people you are talking about for your round up? I know my numbers are not accurate because they come from the government but 12- 20 million. Let’s see, if we use a million busses, and about 10 years you might get half.

    Once people get rid of their hatred maybe then we can use some common sense. I don't have all the answers nor do I have my mind made up. This problem will not go away with a big round up by a bunch of mad people. Any process that means identifying and then expelling illegal alien will not happen without racial profiling. You may or may not have problem with that but you can't say it won't happen.
    Last edited by USMC_0311; 05-01-2011 at 19:40.
    "There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter"
    Ernest Hemingway

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by USMC_0311 View Post
    Any process that meant identifying and then expelling illegal alien will not happen without racial profiling.
    Exactly.

    Because everybody knows that it's only the dark skinned ones who are ever the "illegals".



    (Those roll eyes weren't meant for you USMC. I know where you stand & to you for it. Those were for all the haters.)

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by finity View Post
    Sorry to hear that!



    You honestly are trying to say that the people coming into this country illegally are an invading army?

    Dude, you need to get your medication adjusted for that paranoia you got goin' on.

    They are simply criminals.

    They aren't even bad criminals. The great majority of them are hard working people who just want to give their families a better life. Sure there are those who are REAL criminal's but you have those in any population.

    Even criminals have Rights in this country. It's a basic American value that MANY seem to forget or easily & willingly violate.



    No.

    The cop is responding to the prior unlawful act of the BG.

    If you hit me (without provocation, just to make it simple), you can't then use MY act of self-defense to further justify agressive action on your part.

    That legal theory is even specifically included in the self-defense laws right here in IN.

    It just doesn't work that way, but I suspect you already knew that.


    Using that as a determination of citizenship would have eliminated every single one of our Founders (& everyone else born before July 4, 1776) as being legal citizen's of the US.

    I think it's funny (in a kind of way) that you argue that Rights are "god-given" with j706 to protect those Rights for YOU but then try to deny those same "god-given" Rights to other people who aren't citizen's of the US because you don't like them being here.

    Are they "god-given" or not?

    "God" didn't just give them to YOU (US). "He" gave them to everybody, no matter where you were born or which river you crossed to get here.

    Oh, I didn't realize that the Founding Fathers were born to illegal aliens!?!
    Do you guys honestly not see the problems caused by illegal immigration ? The crime, the strain on welfare and medical facilities, unemployment numbers? (and don't give me that crap about them only doing jobs Americans won't do. That's a bunch of bull!)
    I wasn't "arguing" anything! Just stating a fact! I also am not trying to deny anyone their rights! Tell me where I'm wrong. By the way... Our rights are God given , not god given...just to be clear.
    Lastly, illegal aliens ( or undocumented international travelers) or whatever you want to call them, do not or at least, should not have the same privileges as law abiding citizens and legal visitors.

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