Copying an LTCH (License to carry a hangun) redux

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  • cordex

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    Jun 24, 2008
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    I know we've had other threads about this, but some of those threads had drifted a bit.

    A common suggestion when someone gets a gun permit is to make one or more copies before laminating the permit. The idea is that if the original is damaged, a copy might be used. While for all practical purposes it would be very difficult bordering on impossible to tell if someone were using a copy rather than the original, I was curious as to what the real deal was.

    I started out by sending an information request to the office of the Attorney General. The response I received was:
    Indiana AG's Office said:
    Thank you for your email. The office of the Indiana General does not have jurisdiction over a gun permit, I think any legal action taken would be by your county prosecutor; please contact that office.

    I issued my request to the Hendricks County prosecutor's office and received this:
    Hendricks County Prosecutor's Office said:
    I am afraid that the immediate question would be what an individual officer would view as a valid permit. As to my office, we would consider a copy of a valid permit to be adequate. However, carrying a copy might not stop you from being initially charged or even arrested. I can not answer as to what other counties would do in that situation.

    Patricia Ann Baldwin
    Prosecuting Attorney
    Hendricks County
    55th Judicial Circuit
    Danville, IN 46122

    I also checked with the Indiana State Police directly
    Indiana State Police said:
    The only valid permit is one issued by the department. Duplicates created by you are not legal although admittedly it would be hard to detect. The department is considering another license format; however nothing will last a lifetime in most cases.

    Lt. Jerry A. Berkey
    Indiana State Police
    Records Division, Rm 302
    100 N. Senate Avenue--IGCN
    Indianapolis, IN 46204
    317-232-8263
    MW2498

    All emphasis mine.

    I'm still waiting on the local Sheriff's department to get back to me.

    As you can see, there is some variety with the responses. A police officer could theoretically arrest you for it, but your prosecuting attorney (or mine anyway) might not file charges. Even if they did, you could present your original (or "original", as the case may be) and have your record cleared. Of course, they'd have to have reason to believe the permit was a copy before it would be an issue at all.

    Anyway, I just wanted to share these responses with INGO. Cheers.
     

    MrsGungho

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    thanks for the work getting the many differing answers. Looks like it is just beware and don't give a reason to have to show your license to carry. :dunno:
     

    SMiller

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    Jan 15, 2009
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    I got a copy of mine the day I got it and got it laminated, I have never carried the original, been pulled over plenty and never a word about it being a copy.
     

    Prometheus

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    Jan 20, 2008
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    It would be interesting to see how they'd prove it was a copy

    Provided your LTCH wasn't revoked or suspended I don't think they'll turn the micron-microscope on it, lol.

    A copy on pink paper laminated would never be questioned IMO. Unless of course it was suspended obviously.

    I wouldn't worry about it.
     

    agentl074

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    The license number is on the document - therefore a copy is just as valid as the original - as your county prosecutor stated. Really there should'nt be a problem but I carry my original laminated.
     

    cce1302

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    Provided your LTCH wasn't revoked or suspended I don't think they'll turn the micron-microscope on it, lol.

    A copy on pink paper laminated would never be questioned IMO. Unless of course it was suspended obviously.

    I wouldn't worry about it.

    Sounds about right to me.
     

    sharpetop

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    I don't know what the answer is but, since ISP is the issuing authority, I would tend to go with what they say. Indiana does need to issue something a little more substantial than a piece of pink paper IMHO.
     

    cosermann

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    I would like to see a citation of the law that says copies are illegal as the ISP representative above asserts.
     

    esrice

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    Jan 16, 2008
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    I would like to see a citation of the law that says copies are illegal as the ISP representative above asserts.

    See, the ISP rep is being very careful with his words. He never says copies are illegal-- he says that the only "legal" ones are the ones that his office creates. He also recognizes that since they don't take measures to make them "copy-proof", that proving a 'fake' would be very difficult to do.

    This does show, however, that we should make every effort to make the copies AS CLOSE to the original as possible, so that the party viewing the license cannot tell a difference.

    I don't feel we as license-holders are being "sneaky", as the same information that appears on the original also appears on the copy, on the same paper, in the same (or very close) size. We're not changing any information. Besides, the piece of paper is simply a "transportation device" for the license number, which is what is used to verify the validity of the license when the officer calls it in to ISP.

    Personal TIP: Reducing the size to 93% of original makes it fit into your wallet better, while not looking like an obvious "copy".
     

    fg12351

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    Oct 12, 2008
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    FYI, I just received my LTCH today and it states on the sheet "Lamination is RECOMMENDED" in bold faced type.
     

    esrice

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    FYI, I just received my LTCH today and it states on the sheet "Lamination is RECOMMENDED" in bold faced type.

    Yes it does. But we're debating the legality of making copies of the license, not laminating it.

    Whether people make copies or not, definately laminate the darn thing, as it (they) have to last you the rest of your life!
     

    VN Vet

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    The pink paper at Office Max is so close to the original, I think you would have to do a chemical test to see which paper is the original. Anyway, with my eyes the paper is an eyeball perfect match.

    Why else would you use pink paper? I hope people don't copy their resume' on such color.
     

    G McBride

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    Aug 1, 2008
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    I made copies of my wife's when she received hers. I took the original and a couple of copies to Office Max for lamination and the girl asked me how we got three of them.

    I put a little pen mark on the back of the original of hers just like I did mine years ago, in the event that I needed to identify the originals. The copies are so close that I can't tell them apart.
     

    cordex

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    Jun 24, 2008
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    I would like to see a citation of the law that says copies are illegal as the ISP representative above asserts.
    As has been mentioned, I don't think there is anything illegal about making a copy but the question I actually asked was "Is a copy of a valid handgun carry permit made by the end-user considered to be a license equivalent to the original for the purposes of IC 35-47-2-1?"

    I should probably have also mentioned that when I called the ISP firearms division and asked my question initially, I was told "You can make copies," almost before I finished asking. Of course, the folks answering the phones are probably not the ones in charge of making the decision, but it does go to show how wildly opinions differ on this.

    When it comes to citing actual law that makes only the originals legit, I think one would simply have to reference IC 35-47-2 which uses license in the context of the document that is sent directly from the ISP. Another way of looking at it would be to say that if you duplicated your operator's license, the copy wouldn't necessarily be the legal document.

    Proving that the specific license you are carrying is a copy, and making a case against you in court (assuming that was the only violation you are accused of) would be the difficult points which is probably a large part of why Mrs. Baldwin stated she wouldn't prosecute such a case.

    Apropos of nothing, Kinkos has very easy-to-use self-service equipment and a very fine selection of paper.
     

    JByer323

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    I didn't even think to make copies of mine, got it laminated, and it split in half, so it got laminated again.

    How much does it cost to get a new copy from the State Police? That way I could make a bunch of copies, and store them in my safe.
     

    Big_John

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    Dec 22, 2008
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    Wouldn't it be easier if they just put a ccw endorsment on your drivers license similar to a motorcycle license? I agree there should be somthing better than a pice of paper. At least card stock?
     
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