portage traffic stop, second attempt to post

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  • dansgotguns

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    the first time i posted this it took 20 minutes because i went so in depth and when i clicked post it said i had to log in becasue i was logged out and then it didnt post my post so im pretty ticked about that but im going to post it again but muuuch less and probaly missing alot more info.

    i was stopped on 7/24/2012 for a seat belt, i told the officer i had my fnx .40 on my side he seemed to freak out called for back up had 3 squad cars behind me and he repeatedly asked me for my gun telling me he was going to call the prosecutor and get the prosecutor to back him up. i told him abouty TERRY V. Ohio and he said the it didnt matter due to officer safety i knew he was lieng but gave him my firearm because he was verrrry angry and was worried of an "AD" on his part.

    he took my weapon called up 2 other squad cars and ran my license as well as my wifes he saw in my wallet (who doesnt have my same last name) he asked me why she had a different last name and i asked if that was a crime and if not it isnt his business.

    in my rear view mirror i saw him flipping through a book i can assume is a law book and came back asked me to come to the back of the car to talk to him but made sure to tell me i didnt have to, i obliged because i wanted to get a chance to say what i had to say.

    he told me about how he does this for officer safety and tells me about how many cops are killed during traffic stops, i tell him no offense i dont care about officer safety i just want to get home in a timely matter considering im legal have my LTCH am not a felon and am only being stopped for a traffic stop not related to my firearm. (oh by the way the way when he origanally pulled the officer safety thing when i was in the car i said i think it would be safer if we both left our weapons holstered but he didnt like that at all)

    we then get to talking about OCing because i mention how his force constantly harrasses me for OCing and he says its legal but isnt smart then goes to tell me about how id be the first one shot in a bank robbery. i then tell him i OC for comfort educating sheep and numerous other reasons. he got pissed off because i was making sense tells me hes done with the convo and askes the other LEO if he has anythign to say and he says that if im going to OC i need to be aware of my surroundings, i then interrupted him and said since im in teh army and one of the first things they teach us in the army is situational awareness i think ill be ok. he said alright just be careful and sent me on my way. the end. so much more but im done typing.
     

    actaeon277

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    how id be the first one shot in a bank robbery

    Ask him to name a time that has happened.

    So, are you going to complain to the police department about the illegal confiscation of your gun.
    You are right. After the presentation of the LTCH, everything on the gun (questions, confiscation) is supposed to stop. Unless of course this is in the commision of a crime.
     

    dansgotguns

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    im going to let this one go because i did willfully, after a lot of heisitation, give him my firearm because he was so very persistent and turning red from anger. plus my lawyer has been very good to me and i dont feel like asking for another favor for something i can take car of on a personal level. those LEOs walked away knowing that theres atleast one nonLEO in the area that knows the laws. i forgot to mention that they were very shocked that i knew what i was talking about and at the end told me they were happy to have this conversation and are glad i was so opinionated but again added their 2 cents on officer safety
     

    dansgotguns

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    but rest assured, im quite positive they told all their fellow LEOs about this and now they know im serious, and wont be handing over my weapon again no matter what.
     

    dansgotguns

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    also he mentioned he had been a LEO for 18 years which i thought was odd because in our arguements i had him so toungue tied becasue he didnt know the laws and i did
     
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    also he mentioned he had been a LEO for 18 years which i thought was odd because in our arguements i had him so toungue tied becasue he didnt know the laws and i did

    Could have been a Cook County LEO for 18 years in which case your slurpee could be perceived as a threat to officer safety.
     

    Papa

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    I personally wouldn't have said anything unless he asked to prevent this very scenario from playing out. The vest thing to do in this situation was to be as cooperative as possible since the cop was freaking g out and all. Glad it worked out for you even if he held you up.
     

    dansgotguns

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    only reason i said anything at all was i was in my father in laws toyota which is very tiny and i had to literally lift my rear end up to the steering wheel to get my wallet out which would have shoved my weapon into the LEOs face and was trying to not surpise him
     

    Hammerhead

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    Point of correction, the case law you wanted was State v. Richardson, not Washington.

    Richardson stated that once a valid (verified) LTCH is presented, all inquiry into your firearms must cease.
     

    CathyInBlue

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    The Indiana Supreme Court has ruled that the police are entirely free to ask you any question under the sun that they desire to at any time. However, unless the question is mandated an answer in law (such as ID info for an infraction or ordinance violation), you are entirely free to decline to answer.

    I would have stayed in my FIL's Toyota in order to enjoy the show of watching just how many shades of red then purple the face of the insane uniformed man with a badge could turn. Since there is no longer a legal requirement to carry your LTCH, there can be no legal requirement to turn it over to the nice young man with the uniform and gun, but when pulled over for traffic infraction, he has authority to compel ID, so just slip him that through the sliver of open window and let him go find out through authoritative means (police laptop in his cruiser). If he comes back with more questions about firearms ownership, he obviously didn't note the info on same on his screen, so have your LTCH license number memorized to quote him so he can verify that and then quote him Richardson v State. If that doesn't shut him up about your legally carried piece, quote him Washington v State about requiring reasonable, articulable basis for concern for officer safety.

    If, like the case of Krysta Sutterfield, the LEO threatens to smash in your window in order to effect your firearm's confiscation, question the sanity of breaking a window, which is the only thing between him and a person he irrationally believes to be a threat to him and who he believes is armed, and demand that he get a Sargent out there immediately.

    Even better, since at that point, the stop under the Indiana Seat Belt Law will have already gone WAY over any kind of reasonable time limits, demand that he obey the law and simply let you go.

    IF, and that's a big if, an officer actually has a reasonable, articulable basis for concern for officer safety, that's one thing, but I read Washington plus IC 35-47-11.1-2(2) to indicate that a blanket policy for the warrantless seizure of privately held firearms at every police/citizen interaction, regardless of time, place, or other circumstance, to be violative of both black letter law and Constitutional rights against unreasonable search and seizure.
     

    ATM

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    im going to let this one go because i did willfully, after a lot of heisitation, give him my firearm because he was so very persistent and turning red from anger...

    It is worthy of a complaint and you should so that it will be documented.

    Decent ending... but the initial part of that interaction definitely needs addressed up the chain of command.
     

    Hammerhead

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    forgot to say somewhere in there i added that WASHINGTON V. STATE says once i show my LTCh the convo is over regarding my weapon.

    Point of correction, the case law you wanted was State v. Richardson, not Washington.

    Richardson stated that once a valid (verified) LTCH is presented, all inquiry into your firearms must cease.

    ehhhh idk i feel like they both apply


    Re-read what you said, and re-read what I corrected you on. Washington doesn't apply to your situation because you weren't removed from the "danger" you (I believe) presented your LTCH. You were only removed from the "danger" when you handed him your sidearm.

    I'm not going into all the other fail in your interaction, I'm just trying to make sure you're educated as to which case law you should be quoting, if you're going to be quoting case law.
     

    rnmcguire

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    This is exactly why you shouldn't have diahrea of the mouth and inform the officer about your legally carried firearm. You know that you have no bad intentions with the weapon and it's presence isn't even relative to the conversation. I understand the idea of wanting to make the officer feel safe and respecting his position but most time ignorance is bliss. Did you also tell him about the stop sign you rolled through last week? I just feel that you're potentially putting yourself in a bad situation just for being honest. :twocents:
     

    dansgotguns

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    I appreciate all of the inputs, very informative. That's why I love this site. I knew I made some errors and just wanted opinions, that's what I got :)
     

    Mark 1911

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    This is exactly why you shouldn't have diahrea of the mouth and inform the officer about your legally carried firearm. You know that you have no bad intentions with the weapon and it's presence isn't even relative to the conversation. I understand the idea of wanting to make the officer feel safe and respecting his position but most time ignorance is bliss. Did you also tell him about the stop sign you rolled through last week? I just feel that you're potentially putting yourself in a bad situation just for being honest. :twocents:

    So, this raises a question which I'm sure has been answered here before so please excuse me for asking. But if an officer does stop me for a traffic stop and in the process inquires about weapons, and I would rather not inform him, then what is the standard response? Say nothing? Say "I prefer not to answer"?
     
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