RAND Study on NYPD Training

[Kirk Freeman]

After the Empire State Building Murder and police response there was much discussion on NYPD's less than optimal training.

Recently a RAND study of NYPD police training has resurfaced and I share it with INGO for discussion.

http://www.pagunblog.com/2012/08/29/rand-study-on-nypd-firearms-training/

 

[TheReaper]

I think that the blame needs to be placed on the department head and politicians that don't want to pay the money for the training, it's hard to blame the officers. You do get what you pay for!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I think it is the same problem that all FTUs in all PDs face: as it is next to impossible to quantify training (software) it is better to spend the money on things you can touch (hardware).

Perhaps INGOers who are in LE or even FTUs can add more light to this.

 

[Tamara]

...and just think, they've at least had SOME formal instruction.

I've been on a lot of public ranges: The average non-LE shooter has no room to sneer. The safest thing at the local range is generally the bullseye, 'cause it's only getting grazed by accident.

 

[downzero]

It's really hard to master the handgun. Obviously it wouldn't be practical to not allow our police to carry them. But it really takes a lot of shooting to be effective with the handgun. I'm not sure any amount of "training" courses, without regular live fire (once a month at least) could really make the difference.

I also think that the 12 lb trigger was incorporated into NYPD without considering the side effect that it makes it extremely difficult to shoot the gun accurately.

Ergonomics is important, and if my own experience with my J-frame is any indication, no matter how much or how often you practice shooting, it is very difficult to shoot fast and accurate with a trigger that heavy.

 

[cosermann]

Two to four range days, 33 hrs classroom, and 95 rounds every 6 mo - that's it?

I have more weapons training than the typical NYPD officer in that article and I'm just a nobody.

 

[Mr. Habib]

After reading that, it is obvious that my nine year daughter is better trained to handle firearms than the average NYPD officer.

 

[cosermann]

[FONT=&quot]Yet, we are consistently told (and are conditioned to believe) that “they” are the experts. “They” are the professionals. Leave things to “us.”

We simple citizens couldn’t possibly handle firearms responsibly, safely, or effectively.

Riiiight.
[/FONT]

 

[VUPDblue]

the last agency I worked for issued Glock22s with the NY 12# triggers. I qualified (with a perfect score I might add) and made it through training with that abomination of a trigger so I know its possible. we were allowed to have the trigger replaced with the 5.5# standard as long as we were proved proficient with the NY trigger.

as far as quality of training goes, that article doesn't even attempt to describe or detail what constitutes NY's training syllabus. I am in no way defending their regimen, history has shown that it is very possibly "lacking", to say the least.
I can speak for IMPD and based on the private courses I have taken, and what I have seen offered by other institutions, our firearms training is world class. I would also put our performance record in police action shootings up as evidence of said instruction.
The purpose of this post is to simply illustrate that every agency is different and painting with a broad brush is not appropriate. Everyone needs to be judged on their own merits.

 

[downzero]

the last agency I worked for issued Glock22s with the NY 12# triggers. I qualified (with a perfect score I might add) and made it through training with that abomination of a trigger so I know its possible. we were allowed to have the trigger replaced with the 5.5# standard as long as we were proved proficient with the NY trigger.

What you're saying is that you maximized your score in a controlled environment, based on an objective test. I have no reason to doubt you.

What I am saying is that in the world, there is no such thing as a maximum score, and that ergonomics is ultimately the barrier to achieving a higher score once basic proficiency is mastered.

There's no doubt in my mind that I can tear up a plate rack with nearly any handgun, and that I can improve my time and accuracy with practice.

But no matter what I do, and no matter how much I practice, it's much more difficult, slower, and I'm more likely to miss with a gun that doesn't fit my hand and a trigger weight 3-5x the weight of the gun that is in my hand.

I've yet to meet anyone who can completely overcome this, and at the extremes (1 7/8" barrel revolver with 12+ lb trigger), my miss percentage is much higher and my shooting is much slower.

Am I just weak and a bad shot, or is it really a whole lot easier to hit plates with a 5" barrel, its associated sight radius, and a trigger that requires only a few pounds of pressure and 1/8" of travel?

 

[ViperJock]

My question is how much firearms training does the average INGO get as required by their job? Mine = 0.

I train on my own time. It is reasonable to conclude that at least a few of New York's finest practice on their own time too? Just sayin. Maybe before people assume they practice more or shoot straighter than LEOs they should consider thinking the whole way through it.

 

[Spike_351]

...and just think, they've at least had SOME formal instruction.

I've been on a lot of public ranges: The average non-LE shooter has no room to sneer. The safest thing at the local range is generally the bullseye, 'cause it's only getting grazed by accident.

I'm willing to bet you're the average non-Leo shooter who keeps grazing the bullseye by accident?

 

[Mr. Habib]

...and just think, they've at least had SOME formal instruction.

I've been on a lot of public ranges: The average non-LE shooter has no room to sneer. The safest thing at the local range is generally the bullseye, 'cause it's only getting grazed by accident.

I've known a number of LEO that regularly cleaned their dept's qualification course 300/300. When they were invited to shoot in the matches at the local range, they were routinely embarrassed by the non LEOs there. It's not the amount of formal training, it's the quality and relevance of the training. They quickly learned that there is a BIG difference between standing still and putting holes in a nice big B27 silhouette target under ridiculously long time constraints and shooting and reloading on the move at small targets that react and with very little time.

 

[Tamara]

I'm willing to bet you're the average non-Leo shooter who keeps grazing the bullseye by accident?

Hell, no!

See you at Iggle Crick this weekend?

Look, I'm a thoroughly mediocre pistol shooter; I have no illusions about that (seriously, in any training class or match, all I pray for is to not come in dead last,) but I look like a frickin' ninja compared to the average shooter on the line on any given weekend.

Guess it all depends on what your baseline for comparison is, nicht wahr?

All I'm arguing against here is the mentality that "I don't have a badge, and I make it to the range every three months, so... hurr, hurr ...cops can't shoot!"

 

[Kirk Freeman]

See you at Iggle Crick this weekend?

Well, ok, if you insist.

 

[Spike_351]

Hell, no!

See you at Iggle Crick this weekend?

Look, I'm a thoroughly mediocre pistol shooter; I have no illusions about that (seriously, in any training class or match, all I pray for is to not come in dead last,) but I look like a frickin' ninja compared to the average shooter on the line on any given weekend.

Guess it all depends on what your baseline for comparison is, nicht wahr?

All I'm arguing against here is the mentality that "I don't have a badge, and I make it to the range every three months, so... hurr, hurr ...cops can't shoot!"

It seems I misunderstood the intent of your post and for that I am sorry, I myself am not currently in any competitions, I usually do go to the range evey weekend usually end up firing between 300-500 rounds every Sunday. I guess I just assumed the average shooter was at the range more than myself. I will agree though that a lot indiviuals I see are merely looking to make there gun go bang rather than hit there target.

 

[9mmfan]

I've personally known former and current LEO's who only shot their firearm when they had to qualify. I don't shoot as often as I'd like to, but come on! Their very job descriptions puts them in very real physical danger and I would think they would shoot as much as they could.

Yes, some LEO's are gun guys and they shoot a lot-some right here on INGO

 

[Denny347]

As a firearms instructor for IMPD, I will put our training up against anyones. We do quite a bit of force on force simunition training, a ton of move and shoots, shooting steels, ect ect... Not much shooting on a static line. We will also shoot from unusual positions with handguns and rifles. We now have .22 conversions for patrol rifles. They allow us to shoot our rifles on the steel in our tactical bays...VERY COOL. I am always impressed by the shooting abilities of our officers. While we do have our stragglers, most of our officers do very well during our "stress tests".

 

[VUPDblue]

I had only shot upside down once before IMPD training..... 'nuff said...

 

[Tamara]

I'll say this: In every gun school class I've been in, the cops who could be arsed to show up were always in the top half of the class.

Shooters gonna shoot. Even more so if they're in a job that encourages them to do so and will subsidize their ammo costs.